I thought this might be interesting. I was thinking more about positions from the early middle game where a slight difference in position can affect the outcome of a combination. There must be loads of examples of this sort of thing.
I was quite pleased with this game, although I suppose there's not that much to it. Black can defend more tenaciously with 19...Ne5.
Two years later...
The position after 17 moves is very similar to the earlier game, in fact Black has effectively played ...Rad8 instead of ...a6, but from a very different move order. The black queens, for example, have both taken 3 moves to reach c6, by different routes. The difference in position is quite crucial in one variation. If White plays 18. Rad1 Nd7 now 19. Nd5 is unconvincing because of 19...exd5 20. exd5 Qc8 21. Qe6+ Kh8 22. Bxg7+ Kxg7 23. Rf7+ Kg8 24. Rxe7+ Kh8 and the knight on d7 is protected, so it makes more sense to put the rook on e1. Luckily I had the advantage of knowing the earlier game and variations, albeit from a slightly different position. 19...Ne5 is still a more stubborn defence. Interestingly Fritz prefers 19. Nb5 to 19. Nd5 anyway, so ...a6 from the earlier game had a point.
Similar positions from a different move order
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NigelDonovan
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
Nobody has said anything, so I'll agree it's interesting!
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John McKenna
Re: Similar positions from a different move order
Yes, interesting close proximity (the differences are given, above, by Nigel D) of the positions, at move 17.fe, in both games.
And, after 17... fe there follows a slightly different move in the two games - 18.Rad1 & 18.Rae1 - both of which give White the better position.
Interestingly is the next move 18... Nd7? that was played in both games, with their slightly different positions, that is the first real error. (It looks like 18... Rf8 might be the best way to carry on the fight.)
19.Nd5! was Whites's reply in both games and Black, already on the back foot, then started to collapse - rapidly with 19... Bf8? in one game & totally with 19... ed?? in the other.
Instead Nigel D's suggestion, 19... Ne5 would look to have been the best way to try to defend the two slightly different positions in both games.
Thanks to Nigel D for sharing.
And, after 17... fe there follows a slightly different move in the two games - 18.Rad1 & 18.Rae1 - both of which give White the better position.
Interestingly is the next move 18... Nd7? that was played in both games, with their slightly different positions, that is the first real error. (It looks like 18... Rf8 might be the best way to carry on the fight.)
19.Nd5! was Whites's reply in both games and Black, already on the back foot, then started to collapse - rapidly with 19... Bf8? in one game & totally with 19... ed?? in the other.
Instead Nigel D's suggestion, 19... Ne5 would look to have been the best way to try to defend the two slightly different positions in both games.
Thanks to Nigel D for sharing.
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Jon Tait
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
Not the same thing at all really, but it's reminded me of a blogpost about a direct transposition from the Sicilian to the Ruy Lopez...
https://200opengames.blogspot.com/2018/ ... ilian.html
https://200opengames.blogspot.com/2018/ ... ilian.html
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
The position after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 d5 5. exd5 Qxd5 6. cxd4
can also arise from a Chigorin.
1. d4 d5 2, c4 Nc6 3. cxd5 Qxd5 4. e3 e5 5. Nf3 exd4 6. exd4
In the Scotch move order, play frequently continues with a known theoretical sequence 6. .. Bg4 7. Nc3 Bb4 8. Be2 Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Qc4 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qe2+ Qxe2 12.Kxe2 which is where the game starts. That sequence is less common in the Chigorin move order.
can also arise from a Chigorin.
1. d4 d5 2, c4 Nc6 3. cxd5 Qxd5 4. e3 e5 5. Nf3 exd4 6. exd4
In the Scotch move order, play frequently continues with a known theoretical sequence 6. .. Bg4 7. Nc3 Bb4 8. Be2 Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Qc4 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qe2+ Qxe2 12.Kxe2 which is where the game starts. That sequence is less common in the Chigorin move order.
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NigelDonovan
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
A far more spectacular example of the sort of thing I was thinking of is two games given by Tim Krabbé in his entertaining book "Chess Curiosities" and on his website, although here the combinations occur in the ending.
It may seem a huge coincidence that exactly the same combination happened in two games, and within two years of each other. But I would have thought that the configuration of the pieces on the queenside after Na4 is likely to have occurred in other games. You also need the white king to be on g1, with no pawn on f2 or e3, because ...c4 needs to be check in one line. I think it's quite possible that this combination could have been played, or more likely missed, in other games. Even if it was a game between Bob and Fred in the club last night. Well, not last night, obviously.
It may seem a huge coincidence that exactly the same combination happened in two games, and within two years of each other. But I would have thought that the configuration of the pieces on the queenside after Na4 is likely to have occurred in other games. You also need the white king to be on g1, with no pawn on f2 or e3, because ...c4 needs to be check in one line. I think it's quite possible that this combination could have been played, or more likely missed, in other games. Even if it was a game between Bob and Fred in the club last night. Well, not last night, obviously.
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Neil Blackburn
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
I have noted one example here. https://www.chess.com/blog/simaginfan/r ... m-the-past
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NigelDonovan
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
In Neil's example above, the two games were played on adjacent boards at the same time.
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NigelDonovan
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Re: Similar positions from a different move order
From Chernev's "Wonders and Curiosities of Chess". The final positions are almost identical with colours reversed.