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Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:29 pm
by John Foley
A number of leagues, possibly all, are about to be abandoned for public health reasons before all of the matches are completed. Is there a protocol for deciding the final standings? Taking the current standings can be unfair if a team has yet to play some strong opposition. Cancelling the season is unfair (as Liverpool fans would argue). The Duckworth-Lewis-Stern method for cricket only applies to single matches. Is there a fair calculation for leagues?
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:26 pm
by LawrenceCooper
John Foley wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:29 pm
A number of leagues, possibly all, are about to be abandoned for public health reasons before all of the matches are completed. Is there a protocol for deciding the final standings? Taking the current standings can be unfair if a team has yet to play some strong opposition. Cancelling the season is unfair (as Liverpool fans would argue). The Duckworth-Lewis-Stern method for cricket only applies to single matches. Is there a fair calculation for leagues?
I've only heard of situations where if an individual player or team have to withdraw and have played more than half (two-thirds or some other figure) then their results will stand. For the situations that you mention the choices seem to be delay, declare the season null and void or take the final standings. Clearly the latter two favour some teams more than others, especially where teams have multiple games in hand. Maybe there is some potential for adjudication of matches yet to be played but that sounds like another recipe for disagreement!
The added complication for the 4NCL is the impact on players who are very close to achieving norms (and titles) a situation I am acutely aware of within my own teams and I expect there are others in the same boat.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:40 pm
by ben.graff
I think for leagues it will depend a bit on how long we are suspended for and the trade offs people are willing to make between the 19/20 and 20/21 seasons. My personal hope for the Leamington League is that at some point we are able to finish off the 19/20 fixtures. Even if that entails compromises as to when 20/21 ultimately gets underway. Impossible to know at this point, but I expect all leagues will consult with their clubs on the options when the time comes. Bring on that day!
For now though, our main message to our clubs (not that they need it) is for everyone to keep in virtual touch with those who might be particularly isolated by the suspension.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:23 pm
by David Sedgwick
I would have thought that most leagues will wish to complete their 2019 - 2020 programmes if at all possible.
If it becomes feasible to play again in June and July, then postponed games could take place then.
If a much longer suspension is necessary, then in an extreme case 2020 - 2021 leagues could be cancelled, with only outstanding games from 2019 - 2020 taking place.
As for established protocol where leagues are abandoned, the problem with all sports is that the most recent precedents are from 1939. At some point it may become appropriate for the ECF Board to provide guidance, but it currently has more pressing decisions to take.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:27 pm
by JustinHorton
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:23 pm
.
As for established protocol where leagues are abandoned, the problem with all sports is that the most recent precedents are from 1939
Well, the most recent British precedents perhaps.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:42 pm
by Chris Goodall
There are probably any number of fair calculations, the trouble is that neither the winners nor the losers of your calculation will give a monkey's how fair it is. There is no substitute for getting the representatives of all the teams together in a room, having them repeat the same arguments to each other 5-10 times, and waiting for one of them to give up out of exhaustion.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:43 pm
by Jonathan Rogers
Even in 1939, did leagues have the same problem; presumably war started at the start of most sporting and chess seasons?
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:46 pm
by Alan Walton
Jonathan Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:43 pm
Even in 1939, did leagues have the same problem; presumably war started at the start of most sporting and chess seasons?
Correct, war started in Sept 1939; so the season never started (football that is)
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:49 pm
by David Sedgwick
Jonathan Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:43 pm
Even in 1939, did leagues have the same problem; presumably war started at the start of most sporting and chess seasons?
Cricket was the main exception, both in 1939 and 1914. I believe that the standings at the time that war started were declared final in both cases.
On both occasions some sports tried to continue with their activities but soon gave up.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:51 pm
by Jonathan Rogers
perhaps one lasting consequence of this virus is that leagues will introduce rules addressing situations of necessary abandonment. At least chess does not seem to be behind anyone else in this respect.
Since the virus may operate for a while, I wonder if there might indeed be a case for just having two weekends to finish the current 4NCL season over next season. With any luck the timings will work and if they don't, better to arrange just one or two weekends than to have to deal with many more, and to have two different seasons unconcluded would seem particularly unhappy. If it turns out that we cannot conclude this current season even over next season, there will at least be broad agremment for then abandoning it and voiding it, maybe permitting voluntary relegation and promotion for those who were last in the appropriate positions.
I emphasise that I came up with this on the back of a envelope just now.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:56 pm
by David Williams
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:13 pm
by Nick Grey
In the Surrey Trophy Kingston finish 7th and Last no matter what.
Perhaps some financial help for clubs.
Perhaps A free 3 months Ecf membership this season.
Surrey made a U-turn this Morning. So 16/3 is NO chess tho silent from captain And opposition.
1963 was problematic. Tho not enough to stop my mum and dad leaving me in a pram outside.
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:19 pm
by LawrenceCooper
Jonathan Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:51 pm
perhaps one lasting consequence of this virus is that leagues will introduce rules addressing situations of necessary abandonment. At least chess does not seem to be behind anyone else in this respect.
Since the virus may operate for a while, I wonder if there might indeed be a case for just having two weekends to finish the current 4NCL season over next season. With any luck the timings will work and if they don't, better to arrange just one or two weekends than to have to deal with many more, and to have two different seasons unconcluded would seem particularly unhappy. If it turns out that we cannot conclude this current season even over next season, there will at least be broad agremment for then abandoning it and voiding it, maybe permitting voluntary relegation and promotion for those who were last in the appropriate positions.
I emphasise that I came up with this on the back of a envelope just now.
There's definite logic to what you say, my selfish perspective would raise the concern over the rule regarding duration of tournament for title norms tobe valid:
1.14 Leagues and national team championships may last longer than 90 days, but not more than one year. Normally for individual tournaments, a period of at most 90 days is permitted but the QC Chairman may give prior approval to tournaments of a longer duration.
but hopefully common sense would prevail if the 2019-20 seasons finishes more than a year after the start. Whilst Division One didn't start until Jan 2020 it may be that the date of Division Three/Four in November would be the date from which the year rule is enforced.
I definitely agree though that it is far preferable for the current season to be completed in the format which it started with. How the 2020 European Club Cup places will be decided is a matter for others!
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:24 pm
by JustinHorton
Alan Walton wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:46 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:43 pm
Even in 1939, did leagues have the same problem; presumably war started at the start of most sporting and chess seasons?
Correct, war started in Sept 1939; so the season never started (football that is)
In
fact three rounds of games were played.[EDIT: as I see
David has said.]
Re: Final standings in abandoned leagues
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:38 pm
by JustinHorton
JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:27 pm
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:23 pm
.
As for established protocol where leagues are abandoned, the problem with all sports is that the most recent precedents are from 1939
Well, the most recent British precedents perhaps.
For instance
Due to the 2019 Chilean protests, the competition was suspended since mid-October with six matchdays still left. After a failed attempt to resume normal activity that saw only one match fully played, on 29 November 2019, ANFP's Council of Presidents voted to conclude the season. Thus Universidad Católica, who were leading the competition at the time of the suspension, won their fourteenth title. No teams were relegated to the Primera B this season