(Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:21 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:59 pm
For our purposes the crucial point seems to be that the 6-person maximum does not apply to gatherings in premises (other than private dwellings) which are operated by --
a) a business,
b) a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, or
c) a public body.
That would seem to cover most of the premises commonly used for chess leagues and tournaments.
That isn't what the ECF seems to be saying. The same could apply to the EBU where Bridge clubs use non-dedicated premises.

The operators of Community Centres for example can be structured as charitable bodies.
You start wondering when 6-person maximum does apply!
If Boris or Jacob Rees-Mogg tried to hold a home get together with external guests and all their children

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:23 pm

I haven’t looked, but I recall a newspaper saying there was a 30 person limit on weddings, funerals and sports team events. Is that mentioned?

Brendan O'Gorman
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:26 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:59 pm
Everything we were told about the new legislation last week has to be taken with a pinch of salt because it didn't actually appear until today: presumably the Government's lawyers were putting the finishing touches to it over the weekend. For our purposes the crucial point seems to be that the 6-person maximum does not apply to gatherings in premises (other than private dwellings) which are operated by --
a) a business,
b) a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, or
c) a public body.
That would seem to cover most of the premises commonly used for chess leagues and tournaments.
Thanks for this, Jacques. Good to hear an ex-Government lawyer's view on where we stand.

Mick Norris
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:33 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:11 pm
Jacques Parry wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:59 pm
Everything we were told about the new legislation last week has to be taken with a pinch of salt because it didn't actually appear until today: presumably the Government's lawyers were putting the finishing touches to it over the weekend. For our purposes the crucial point seems to be that the 6-person maximum does not apply to gatherings in premises (other than private dwellings) which are operated by --
a) a business,
b) a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, or
c) a public body.
That would seem to cover most of the premises commonly used for chess leagues and tournaments.
As a player it seems that I have a good selection of tournaments to play in, abroad. Why is that?

As an organiser it appears that I cannot invite even six people to come round to my house and play a few games of chess.

However I can hire a hall at (seemingly) no discount and run a chess tournament with X players at an inevitable loss.
The latter point being the crucial one

I could have played for the Manchester County team on Saturday; I could have played in the Manchester Individual tonight; I could have played in the Manchester League on Wednesday night; I could have played for 1 of the Manchester 4NCL teams last Tuesday; all without leaving my house :lol:

Anyway, I'm risking a trip to the barbers instead in a few minutes, hopefully will survive
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:56 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:32 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:56 am
Well, Northumberland Chess Congress must have submitted their procedures to the local authority in order to rent their venue. Obviously they took notice because the event has been allowed to proceed.
I can confirm that this process has been in place and continues to be ongoing. The ECF advice does not seem to consider buildings which have undergone scrutiny and been certified as Covid secure (or whatever the phrase is).

The local authority believes the event to be legal and has approved of the precautions being put in place. Obviously things may change in the next week or so, but currently the organiser intends that the event will go ahead WITH THE SUPPORT of the local authority.

It is unfortunate that the ECF, which has declined to make a statement previously, does so at this point. Also not helpful is that they publish it earlier than they stated to the local organiser.

I've already had to tell one local official that joining Chess Scotland is not an option.
It’s reported that all 7 councils in the North East of England are writing to the government to ask for tighter restrictions; https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... t-18931636

Richard Bates
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:03 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:17 pm
"For our purposes the crucial point seems to be that the 6-person maximum does not apply to gatherings in premises (other than private dwellings) which are operated by --
a) a business,
b) a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, or
c) a public body.
That would seem to cover most of the premises commonly used for chess leagues and tournaments."

You start wondering when 6-person maximum does apply!
It does seem at the moment that the main thrust of Govt policy is to drive people into controlled environments which are taking social distancing guidance seriously and are subject to proper (independent) risk assessment. With all the risks being seen as emerging in, well, uncontrolled environments (private dwellings etc). And the important point is the classification if the buildings themselves, not necessarily the activities which are being engaged in. Which on the face of it is encouraging for OTB chess, subject to satisfactory measures being in place and players being prepared to abide by the limitations they will be forced to put up with.

Of course the flip side is that knowing what is going on inside private Dwellings is damn near impossible provided people don’t go to extremes, so may have little impact and the Govt might start focussing on public venues again...

Richard Bates
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:06 pm

There is of course another possibility for OTB chess which has a precedent in the Old British championship qualifying competitions. Playing in each other’s houses...

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm

In the frequently asked questions section of the government guidelines updated today;

‘3.19 Can I go to my hobby club / amateur musical group / other leisure activity?

It is against the law to gather in groups of more than six, where people are from different households or support bubbles. The rule above does not mean that there cannot be more than six people in any one place. All activities for under 18s are exempt. There can be multiple groups of six people in a place, provided that those groups do not mingle.

In practice, however, this will make it difficult for some activities to take place without breaking the law. Activities where there is a significant likelihood of groups of more than six mingling – and therefore breaking the law – should not take place until further COVID-19 Secure guidance has been developed and approved to enable the activity to happen safely. This may include extended tour groups, large banquet dinners, society or club meetings, or amateur music or drama rehearsals.’

I guess on the surface of it for a chess congress, having a round in the morning and one in the afternoon, you are meeting other groups/mingling.

Mike Gunn
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:29 pm

Yes, 3.19 of the government guidelines is the essential bit.

You could organise a chess tournament with Covid precautions based on APA sections of 6 but (e.g.) ordinary Swiss pairings would result in mingling between groups of 6 and would therefore be illegal.

Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:33 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I guess on the surface of it for a chess congress, having a round in the morning and one in the afternoon, you are meeting other groups/mingling.
Given the comment earlier about exempt premises, is this another example of how the Government, Police or Civil Service would like to interpret the law differs from what the law actually says?

Matthew Turner
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:34 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:29 pm
Yes, 3.19 of the government guidelines is the essential bit.

You could organise a chess tournament with Covid precautions based on APA sections of 6 but (e.g.) ordinary Swiss pairings would result in mingling between groups of 6 and would therefore be illegal.
This simply isn't true though is it. I can go to the pub with 5 people at lunch then a different 5 people at supper. There is absolutely no reason why the law prevents a Swiss taking place.

Tim Spanton
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Tim Spanton » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:34 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:29 pm
Yes, 3.19 of the government guidelines is the essential bit.

You could organise a chess tournament with Covid precautions based on APA sections of 6 but (e.g.) ordinary Swiss pairings would result in mingling between groups of 6 and would therefore be illegal.
Maybe, but club matches would seem to be definitely legal.
Perhaps tournaments could be organised on all-play-all six or five-player events?

Mike Gunn
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Lunch and supper are two different events. Perhaps if you locked everybody out at lunchtime at a chess tournament that could count as 2 different events but it looks too much like trying to get round the rules to me.

Mike Gunn
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:41 pm

All play all sections of 6 players used to be a format used by many tournaments - maybe it's time to turn the clock back?

Matt Bridgeman
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:44 pm

It would seem like a (potentially dangerous) subversion of the restaurant rule, to have a group of people rotated through different permutations of groups of 6, (the table grouping at the Northumberland Congress for example), 5 times over the course of 3 days in the same indoor space. I just don’t think that’s the type of thing the government wants happening currently.
Last edited by Matt Bridgeman on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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