(Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Chris Goodall » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:25 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:04 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:19 pm
David,
The important thing is to have appropriate control measures in place. A player should come into contact with 5 players in a a 5 round Swiss and 5 players in a 6 player all-play-all. To pretend that all play alls are somehow safer detracts from the real issues and doesn't help anyone.
The English Bridge Union has updated its advice at https://www.ebu.co.uk/node/3901.

From what I read there, it seems to me that, in a chess context, it would be possible to organise simultaneous 6 player all-play-alls in some venues but that it would not be possible to organise a Swiss tournament in those venues.
Except that no-one reading the guidelines would conclude that they may only join one group of 6, and then stay in their house until the virus is over. The counter is reset when you leave that group. You can join a different group of 6 in a different place, and conversely, a 7th person can join the group of 5 that you've just left, and form a new group of 6. If you leave the playing area and the building, which the Northumberland players will be doing over lunch, and then come back, re-sanitise and re-get your temperature taken, it's no different than if you'd gone away and come back the next day or the next week.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. Northumbria League hand-cranker; ECF Grader for Bernicia and the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:30 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:03 pm
And the important point is the classification of the buildings themselves, not necessarily the activities which are being engaged in.
I think Richard is spot on. The Government guidance says that the 6-person rule does not apply to gatherings "for work, or the provision of voluntary or charitable services". Presumably that is the result which the Government would have liked the new regulations to achieve. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) regulation 5 doesn't do that, because it refers to gatherings which take place on premises operated by a business, charity or public body. On the face of it this covers a gathering which has no connection with the activities of the body that operates the premises but merely happens to take place on those premises, and over which that body has little or no control - such as a weekend congress in a school.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm

Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Once you have two groups of six, the two groups must not mingle in anyway, either at the club or outside, as that would be breaking the law.
The term "mingle" isn't well defined. It seems to even confuse the Home Secretary who signed off the Regulations. When asked whether it was legal for two families of four on the way say to a park who happened to meet in the street and exchanged conversation, she said this was illegal. Other commentators differed with the street not being defined as somewhere that meeting was illegal
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Looks to me like a Chess Congress / Swiss Tournament would be breaking the law.
The organisers of Northumberland presumably still differ from this opinion.

From the EBU document, quoting Governament stuff
*formal or informal clubs and hobby clubs (e.g. women’s institute, veteran’s associations, freemasons, sewing clubs, book clubs, crafts clubs, reading groups)
Why do the authors of the Government stuff not mention Chess Clubs, Bridge Clubs etc?

It occurred to my that two players using one set aren't touching the same pieces very often assuming adjusting the opponent's pieces wasn't allowed. The only time being during capturing moves.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:51 pm

Perhaps what’s missing from the new guidelines is more references to the limit on the number of people. For weddings and funerals I believe the limit is 30. I would presume that creatively trying to arrange a wedding reception for 150 people, all in neat smaller groupings wouldn’t really fly with the authorities. They would count everyone as being part of the same event. I would think if pushed the government would put a limit of 30 people in chess congresses however Covid secure they get.

Tim Spanton
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Once you have two groups of six, the two groups must not mingle in anyway, either at the club or outside, as that would be breaking the law.
The term "mingle" isn't well defined. It seems to even confuse the Home Secretary who signed off the Regulations. When asked whether it was legal for two families of four on the way say to a park who happened to meet in the street and exchanged conversation, she said this was illegal. Other commentators differed with the street not being defined as somewhere that meeting was illegal
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Looks to me like a Chess Congress / Swiss Tournament would be breaking the law.
The organisers of Northumberland presumably still differ from this opinion.

From the EBU document, quoting Governament stuff
*formal or informal clubs and hobby clubs (e.g. women’s institute, veteran’s associations, freemasons, sewing clubs, book clubs, crafts clubs, reading groups)
Why do the authors of the Government stuff not mention Chess Clubs, Bridge Clubs etc?

It occurred to my that two players using one set aren't touching the same pieces very often assuming adjusting the opponent's pieces wasn't allowed. The only time being during capturing moves.
Yes, but some idiot will spoil it for everyone else by playing the Danish Gambit

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Paul Robert Jackson
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Paul Robert Jackson » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:53 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Once you have two groups of six, the two groups must not mingle in anyway, either at the club or outside, as that would be breaking the law.
The term "mingle" isn't well defined. It seems to even confuse the Home Secretary who signed off the Regulations. When asked whether it was legal for two families of four on the way say to a park who happened to meet in the street and exchanged conversation, she said this was illegal. Other commentators differed with the street not being defined as somewhere that meeting was illegal
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Looks to me like a Chess Congress / Swiss Tournament would be breaking the law.
The organisers of Northumberland presumably still differ from this opinion.

From the EBU document, quoting Governament stuff
*formal or informal clubs and hobby clubs (e.g. women’s institute, veteran’s associations, freemasons, sewing clubs, book clubs, crafts clubs, reading groups)
Why do the authors of the Government stuff not mention Chess Clubs, Bridge Clubs etc?

It occurred to my that two players using one set aren't touching the same pieces very often assuming adjusting the opponent's pieces wasn't allowed. The only time being during capturing moves.
Are the Eagle twins still MP's ? - Chess Players I believe.
Paul Robert Jackson

Tim Spanton
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:53 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:51 pm
Perhaps what’s missing from the new guidelines is more references to the limit on the number of people. For weddings and funerals I believe the limit is 30. I would presume that creatively trying to arrange a wedding reception for 150 people, all in neat smaller groupings wouldn’t really fly with the authorities. They would count everyone as being part of the same event. I would think if pushed the government would put a limit of 30 people in chess congresses however Covid secure they get.
Or 30 people in a chess tournament?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:04 pm

Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:53 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Once you have two groups of six, the two groups must not mingle in anyway, either at the club or outside, as that would be breaking the law.
The term "mingle" isn't well defined. It seems to even confuse the Home Secretary who signed off the Regulations. When asked whether it was legal for two families of four on the way say to a park who happened to meet in the street and exchanged conversation, she said this was illegal. Other commentators differed with the street not being defined as somewhere that meeting was illegal
Paul Robert Jackson wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm
Looks to me like a Chess Congress / Swiss Tournament would be breaking the law.
The organisers of Northumberland presumably still differ from this opinion.

From the EBU document, quoting Governament stuff
*formal or informal clubs and hobby clubs (e.g. women’s institute, veteran’s associations, freemasons, sewing clubs, book clubs, crafts clubs, reading groups)
Why do the authors of the Government stuff not mention Chess Clubs, Bridge Clubs etc?

It occurred to my that two players using one set aren't touching the same pieces very often assuming adjusting the opponent's pieces wasn't allowed. The only time being during capturing moves.
Are the Eagle twins still MP's ? - Chess Players I believe.
Yes, both were re-elected as Labour MPs at the last election.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Chris Goodall
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Chris Goodall » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:22 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:51 pm
I would presume that creatively trying to arrange a wedding reception for 150 people, all in neat smaller groupings wouldn’t really fly with the authorities. They would count everyone as being part of the same event. I would think if pushed the government would put a limit of 30 people in chess congresses however Covid secure they get.
The Troubadour Theatre is allowed to have 400 in the audience in neat smaller groupings.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. Northumbria League hand-cranker; ECF Grader for Bernicia and the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:24 pm

I think there is a difference between having passive socially distanced seating in a cinema/theatre, and sports and games where there is physical interaction with other players. And weddings and funerals. It’s the mingle factor! Lol

John Sellen
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by John Sellen » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:22 pm

Its not all bad news though
The incessant posts on this topic , along the lines of :

Now 5 entries in the Minor !
A 179 from Peckham ! has entered the Open !
An obscure Australian congress has been postponed !

Seem to have stopped

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:26 pm

"The term "mingle" isn't well defined. It seems to even confuse the Home Secretary who signed off the Regulations. When asked whether it was legal for two families of four on the way say to a park who happened to meet in the street and exchanged conversation, she said this was illegal."

In fairness, somebody started mentioning numbers...

However, the Regulations seem to be ambiguous, which can't help.

Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:33 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm
The term "mingle" isn't well defined.
It isn't defined at all, so it has its ordinary meaning. Of course there is room for argument about what that might be. Actually I can't find any precedent for its use (in relation to people, rather than financial assets) in UK legislation.

Tim Spanton
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:38 pm

Looking at various online dictionary definitions, 'mingle' seems to mean more than just 'meet' and possibly more than 'socialise' - rather it involves 'mixing'.
As I understand it, judges will use dictionaries to establish common meanings of words where such a meaning has not been legally established before or is not defined in the relevant legislation.

Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:59 pm

True, but in the event of a prosecution it would be for the magistrate(s) to apply the word in what they take to be its ordinary meaning. And an appeal court would probably say that, as an ordinary English word, its meaning was a matter for the magistrates.

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