(Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
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JustinHorton
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:49 am

Simon Rogers wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:16 pm
Chris Rice wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:18 pm
Simon Rogers wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:48 pm
New Zealand Chess Championships
Open Section
Round 9 Pairings
Points in brackets
1. FM Nicholas Croad (6.5) v (5) CM David Cilia Vincenti
2. Felix Xie (5.5) v (6) FM Ben Hague
3. IM Anthony Ker (5.5) v (5) FM Robert Smith
4. Sashikumar (4.5) v (5) FM Leonard McLaren
5. IM Russell Dive (4.5) v (4.5) Dylan Tama Piwari
9. Patrick Cunningham (2) v (3.5) CM Helen Milligan
Nic Croad won with 7.5/9. You can't see it in the photo but his little son Arthur on his left is holding a miniature of the winning trophy which Nic gets to keep.

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Thanks for the picture Chris, nice trophy.
Here are some more results:
1st FM Nicholas Croad 7.5/9
2nd FM Ben Hague 6.5/9
3rd Felix Xie, IM Anthony Ker, FM Leonard McLaren 6/9
There is a profile of Croad in the latest New In Chess.

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For some reason that eludes me it appears to display the national flag of Botswana.

Image
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Wadih Khoury
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Wadih Khoury » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:49 am

Jacques Parry wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:28 am
Good spot, Joseph, but I'm not convinced. Even if the phrase "supervised activity" is, in isolation, wide enough to cover a chess tournament with an arbiter, you have to take account of the context. The rest of Exception 13 under paragraph 4 is about child care, so I think "supervised activity" is probably meant to include only activities related to child care. Maybe it has some special meaning in that context? If the intention were to allow junior competitions such as chess tournaments, I would expect it to be covered by Exception 3 under paragraph 5, which applies to junior sporting events. And we can't argue that chess is a sport (in this particular context), because Exception 3 refers to "sport or other fitness related activity", which clearly implies that (in this particular context) only fitness-related activities can be sports.

What matters for practical purposes, of course, is not what the law actually allows but what the authorities think it allows, and their view may well be based on the guidance rather than the legislation itself. I assume the Government will, before 12 April, be issuing some guidance on what the regulations say, rather than what the Government intended a month ago that they should say. It won't be accurate - it never is - but maybe it will be more important. If I were an organiser I would be asking DHSC for clarification.
I think this is why reading everything in conjunction clarifies the intent.
  • The legislation states: General exceptions relating to gatherings: 20.e.ii: Exception 13 is that the gathering is reasonably necessary for the purposes of supervised activities for children or other persons who were under the age of 18 on 31st August 2020
  • The common language roadmap: All children will be able to attend any indoor children’s activity, including sport, regardless of circumstance
When reading those 2 in conjunction, it appears to be quite fine. The legislative piece in itself is sufficient, as junior chess (whether coaching, after school club or tournament) is a supervised activity for people under the age of 18. And as Joe pointed out, unlike funerals, there are no limits applied to junior activities. And the intent is clarified by other pieces, which indicate that this line is to reopen after school clubs, and chess falls in that category.

Now is it "reasonably necessary" to meet indoors in order to have that activity? I would believe we can all agree the answer is "yes", since outdoor chess is not very comfortable in the current weather, and that you do need a silent environment in order to practice the activity (so you can't just organise in in a random field).

Joseph Conlon
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Joseph Conlon » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:09 am

The government has been using 'supervised activities for children' as a phrase throughout the pandemic, and to me the use here is consistent with the wording of the roadmap and also with its previous use under the tier system, as a general phrase that covers youth clubs, children's clubs, scouts (and also junior chess events). I note (for example) that the Scout Association is planning to move to indoor events from the 12th April.

The paragraph 5 exception 3 seems more complicated, because it is not specific to children - it also incorporates adult disabled sport, and appears with basically identical wording in the Phase 1 rules where it just mentions disabled sport (nothing to do with children). In Phase 2 it remains an indoor-only exception, adding junior sport to adult disabled sport, and it then disappears entirely in Phase 3 where it enters one of the general exceptions (both indoors and outdoors). So to me that exception is not so much about children as about who can play indoor sport.

Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:35 am

Joseph, you may be right about "supervised activities". But, as someone who used to draft regulations like this for a living, I have to say that if that were the intention it's rather odd for this major exception to be buried in a paragraph which is otherwise concerned with child care.

I don't think the roadmap is really relevant to this. There will have been four weeks of frantic discussion and hasty decision-making, in DHSC and elsewhere, between the publication of the roadmap and the publication of the regulations. If the regulations appear to diverge from the roadmap on a particular issue, that's probably because the Government had second thoughts. DHSC should be able, and may even be willing, to say whether that's the case.

Edit: I now see that the explanatory memorandum accompanying the regulations says "all children’s activities" are permitted, so it looks as if Joseph is right. Still seems weird drafting to me, but hey.
Last edited by Jacques Parry on Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm

"For some reason that eludes me it appears to display the national flag of Botswana."

Well spotted. I glanced at the article and that didn't register at all.

"But, as someone who used to draft regulations like this for a living, I have to say that if that were the intention it's rather odd for this major exception to be buried in a paragraph which is otherwise concerned with child care."

You'll be used to people mucking up what you carefully and clearly expressed then! I know I am.

NickFaulks
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:35 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:28 am
If I were an organiser I would be asking DHSC for clarification.
Would you expect to get it?
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JustinHorton
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:07 pm
"For some reason that eludes me it appears to display the national flag of Botswana."

Well spotted. I glanced at the article and that didn't register at all.
It's not the only odd thing in that issue, but more on that later. (EDIT: here.)
Last edited by JustinHorton on Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Wadih Khoury
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Wadih Khoury » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:33 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:35 am
Still seems weird drafting to me, but hey.
Purely my interpretation, but I suspect that the actual goal of the government was to allow adults to stay longer at work. Hence why there is a section on the various wonderful ways "to keep your children out of the house and under supervision", allowing parents to stay longer at work.

NickFaulks
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:54 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:33 pm
but I suspect that the actual goal of the government was to allow adults to stay longer at work
I strongly recommend that you do not addle your brain by trying to divine their "actual goal".
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Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:56 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:33 pm
Purely my interpretation, but I suspect that the actual goal of the government was to allow adults to stay longer at work. Hence why there is a section on the various wonderful ways "to keep your children out of the house and under supervision", allowing parents to stay longer at work.
Yes, that would indeed explain what "supervised activities" are doing in the child care exception. But, by the same token, doesn't it imply that an activity only counts for this purpose if it actually is a form of child care? That would, I think, exclude the average junior chess tournament. For example, the LJCC's rules state that "Parents or guardians are responsible for their children during the tournament".

But, even if there might otherwise be a doubt about the drafting, I think it's reasonable for organisers to rely on the explanatory memorandum, which will have been cleared with the lawyers who drafted the regulations. And that does say clearly that "all children’s activities" are covered.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Joseph Conlon » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:54 pm

This might be the reflecting what happened in the January lockdown - the government changed the 'supervised activities for children' exemption so that it was no longer general, but only when necessary for parents to work. I understood this so as to allow people deemed as key workers (e.g. NHS staff) to put their children in holiday camps over the February half term to allow them to work.

But I do agree that events should reasonably be classified as 'supervised activities for children'. So for the October event I ran, round breaks were minimal (i.e. pair as soon as the last game is finished, and as soon as the pairing is done, announce the next round). For this reason I would find it hard to defend long lunch breaks or significant scheduled gaps between rounds.

Jacques Parry
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:28 am

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:54 pm
But I do agree that events should reasonably be classified as 'supervised activities for children'.
Joseph, I'm not sure whether you mean you agree with me on this, or only with Wadih. For what it's worth, I would argue that junior chess events are probably not "supervised activities" within the meaning of the legislation, because the context implies that an activity is only exempt if supervised by someone who is in loco parentis; but, for practical purposes, what matters is that both the roadmap and the explanatory memorandum refer to all children's activities. There is no mention of supervision at all, and therefore no question as to what counts as supervision. Why it should be OK for children to meet indoors as long as they are doing something, but not if they just want to chat, is beyond me; but there it is.

David Sedgwick
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:02 pm

With this week marking the anniversary of the first lockdown, I have been looking back at the posts from that time.

A year ago today, I made a rather sharp riposte to a post from Mick Norris. I later discovered that that post was upsetting to Mick in a way that I had not envisaged.

I neglected to apologise at the time, so I do so now. Mick, please will you accept that late is always better than never.

A couple of years ago another member of this Forum apologised to me (not on here, but privately) after 43 years.

Mick Norris
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:36 pm

Apology accepted David
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Nick Burrows
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:26 pm

Some good, up to date scientific opinion re: 3rd wave here: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expe ... in-europe/
So at present it is really difficult to predict what life will be like in the next few months never mind next autumn and whether or not the current roadmap is still on track. However, I do believe we are through the worst of the current pandemic at least in the UK, providing that our immunization campaign remains on track