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Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:36 am
by Paul Habershon
Times crossword 8d Wednesday 2nd September: Church Mass arranged in heart of Kent castle for one (8). Solution: CHESSMAN
I think The Times uses Collins dictionary so, fair enough, 'castle' is defined there as a 'chess piece which moves backwards, forwards or sideways'. At least Chambers dictionary has 'a rook in chess'.
I wonder what has ever been discussed by the editors of these dictionaries. Perhaps it is correct for them to assume that 'castle' is the popular general perception and to ignore the cries of the chess geeks.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:02 am
by MJMcCready
It sounds like slopiness to me but then I never do go beyond the OED. They ought to, at least, distinguish between what is colloquial and what is formal.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:02 am
by NickFaulks
I am irretrievably dim at crosswords, so it took me a minute even to backwork this one. I assumed that the word "castle" was important to the clue, since there are castles in Kent. Then it would have been justifiable.
But it isn't important at all, so "Church Mass arranged in heart of Kent bishop for one" would have been equally good. There are as it happens bishops in Kent, if you wish to lead simple solvers such as myself up the garden path.
My conclusion is that there was no advantage in using the term "castle", so it would have been better avoided.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:47 am
by MJMcCready
Somehow Leeds castle is in Kent and not Yorkshire.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:27 am
by Paul Habershon
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:02 am
I am irretrievably dim at crosswords, so it took me a minute even to backwork this one. I assumed that the word "castle" was important to the clue, since there are castles in Kent. Then it would have been justifiable.
But it isn't important at all, so "Church Mass arranged in heart of Kent bishop for one" would have been equally good. There are as it happens bishops in Kent, if you wish to lead simple solvers such as myself up the garden path.
My conclusion is that there was no advantage in using the term "castle", so it would have been better avoided.
A good cryptic crossword clue should read naturally and make sense. Here 'castle' makes sense and 'bishop' doesn't, nor would any of the other chess pieces. Arguably, however, the 'for one' is clumsy and possibly redundant.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:00 am
by Joseph Conlon
Does anyone know how English chess terminology settled on 'rook' for the piece and 'castling' for, well, castling?
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:25 am
by David Sedgwick
Paul Habershon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:27 am
Arguably, however, the 'for one' is clumsy and possibly redundant.
I don't understand cryptic crosswords at all. but I assumed that you needed the "one" to give you the "e" and the "n" for the solution. If not, from where do they come?
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:38 am
by NickFaulks
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:25 am
I don't understand cryptic crosswords at all. but I assumed that you needed the "one" to give you the "e" and the "n" for the solution. If not, from where do they come?
From the middle of Kent.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:57 am
by Joseph Conlon
To be explicit about the solution for those who have never done crosswords -
Church = CH followed by
EN = 'heart of K(en)t'
which has 'SSMA' ('Mass' arranged, i.e. anagrammatised) inside it, for E(SSMA)N
with the definition 'Castle for one'
apologies to those for whom this is redundant
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:00 pm
by Tim Spanton
Being devil's advocate, could the compiler have been using "castle" in the sense of "to castle"?
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:10 pm
by NickFaulks
But then it's not a chessman.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 pm
by Tim Spanton
Wikipedia sides with those who dislike "castle":
The rook (/rʊk/; ♖,♜) is a piece in the game of chess resembling a castle. Formerly the piece (from Persian رخ rokh/rukh) was called the tower, marquess, rector, and comes (Sunnucks 1970). The term castle is considered to be informal, incorrect, or old-fashioned.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:59 pm
by Kevin Thurlow
"apologies to those for whom this is redundant"
No need to apologise - couldn't have put it better!
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:14 pm
by Paul Habershon
Tim Spanton wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 pm
Wikipedia sides with those who dislike "castle":
The rook (/rʊk/; ♖,♜) is a piece in the game of chess resembling a castle......The term castle is considered to be informal, incorrect, or old-fashioned.
Well spotted! The Collins and Chambers dictionary editors should acknowledge this, especially the 'incorrect' bit. Dictionaries record common usage but they should also have an educational purpose. However, to go off at a tangent, I fear the day will come when 'lay' will replace the 'correct' 'lie', as in something laying/lying in the road or someone having a lay-in instead of a lie-in.
Re: Rooks and castles
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:18 pm
by Tim Spanton
Paul Habershon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:14 pm
Tim Spanton wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 pm
Wikipedia sides with those who dislike "castle":
The rook (/rʊk/; ♖,♜) is a piece in the game of chess resembling a castle......The term castle is considered to be informal, incorrect, or old-fashioned.
Well spotted! The Collins and Chambers dictionary editors should acknowledge this, especially the 'incorrect' bit. Dictionaries record common usage but they should also have an educational purpose. However, to go off at a tangent, I fear the day will come when 'lay' will replace the 'correct' 'lie', as in something laying/lying in the road or someone having a lay-in instead of a lie-in.
You could well be rite