What's GM short doing?!

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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:53 pm

But, in order to answer Nick, the President's motion was for a lesser measure than throwing Iran out of FIDE- and the natural assumption is that it had a better chance of passing? And (here I am guessing) there is no appetite for returning to the matter in the near or foreseeable future?

NickFaulks
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:16 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:53 pm
But, in order to answer Nick, the President's motion was for a lesser measure than throwing Iran out of FIDE- and the natural assumption is that it had a better chance of passing? And (here I am guessing) there is no appetite for returning to the matter in the near or foreseeable future?
I think your interpretation of the lengthy debate is quite wrong. I believe that the ENG proposal would have passed comfortably, but the President is always keen to appear conciliatory and suggested that he should be allowed to give Iran one last chance to mend their ways. He is of course wasting his time and I expect he knows that perfectly well.

FIDE Council has now been given authority to take further action against Iran, up to and including expulsion, without further reference back to the General Assembly. That is a big step forward.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:21 pm

ok, that's a bit more detail that I didn't know. But I would be surprised and disappointed to think that so many in the Assembly are happy to see Iran thrown out, so I'd be interested to know your reasons for supposing otherwise. Also what is the likelihood of Council expelling Iran? If that is minimal, then effectively others will have found a way to appear tough whilst knowing that expulsion will not happen.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:29 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:16 pm
He is of course wasting his time and I expect he knows that perfectly well.
Yes but Dvorkovich is a politician and, while FIDE's actions might be fairly irrelevant in the wider world of geopolitics, perhaps he remembered that the Russia and Iranian governments have similar interests in at least one sensitive area of the world and that it was canny to appear conciliatory.

NickFaulks
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:50 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:21 pm
ok, that's a bit more detail that I didn't know. But I would be surprised and disappointed to think that so many in the Assembly are happy to see Iran thrown out, so I'd be interested to know your reasons for supposing otherwise. Also what is the likelihood of Council expelling Iran? If that is minimal, then effectively others will have found a way to appear tough whilst knowing that expulsion will not happen.
I have little doubt that nearly all of Europe and the Americas would have run the Iranian federation out of town on the spot. I was somewhat surprised by the lack of support Iran received even from the sources you might have expected.

I think the likelihood of FIDE Council expelling Iran, or at least effectively doing so, is a very long way from minimal.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Nigel Short
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Nigel Short » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:28 pm

Nick Faulks has summarised the situation well. I also believe the English motion would have passed comfortably, albeit with a reduced majority.

If you will forgive me for saying so, Jonathan Rogers continues to frame the debate in totally the wrong terms. Both the English (discarded) motion and the motion of Arkady Dvorkovich are about upholding the rule of law. Iran - a serial offender - cannot expect to remain a member of FIDE if it continually flouts the FIDE Charter. At some point FIDE will say "Enough is enough" and suspend the federation. That moment may be somewhat further away than had the English motion passed but, unless there is a clear change of policy, it will come nonetheless.
Last edited by Nigel Short on Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:40 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:50 pm
I have little doubt that nearly all of Europe and the Americas would have run the Iranian federation out of town on the spot.
Despite the denials of the Iranian Federation, it's been clear for a number of years that Iranian players will refuse to play ISR players if paired and this behaviour has the support or is instructions from the Federation, and beyond that, the government itself.

British arbiters, particularly at Gibraltar, have been fudging the issue for some years by setting no pairing flags. They've been caught doing this at least twice. Once was when they forget and paired an Iranian youngster. Later he defected to ENG as his FIDE nationality after getting into trouble for playing. The other was during the Hou Yifan pairing row where arbiters reproducing the pairings had to set a no play flag to get the reproduction 100%.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:16 pm

Nigel Short wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:28 pm
Nick Faulks has summarised the situation well. I also believe the English motion would have passed comfortably, albeit with a reduced majority.

If you will forgive me for saying so, Jonathan Rogers continues to frame the debate in totally the wrong terms. Both the English (discarded) motion and the motion of Arkady Dvorkovich are about upholding the rule of law. Iran - a serial offender - cannot expect to remain a member of FIDE if it continually flouts the FIDE Charter. At some point FIDE will say "Enough is enough" and suspend the federation. That moment may be somewhat further away than had the English motion passed but, unless there is a clear change of policy, it will come nonetheless.
Is it wrong to frame the debate in terms of the impact of Iranian players, who have no control at all over the situation? That is not obvious. If Iranian chess players were cheating and with the support of the federation, then we would all support throwing them out, but this matter is very different.

Nigel puts his case in terms of the rule of law, but it is a black and white picture and in international affairs there are often shades of grey where we turn a blind eye to certain repeated breaches. Take for example, the UK, which has always disenfrachised all convicted prisoners from voting, and which refused to amend the ban between 2005-2018 when it was held not to comply with European human rights law, under which blanket disenfranchisement was unlawful. The UK kept paying damages to prisoners who sued them during this period, but without ever amedning the law, as required to do by terms of its membership of the Council of Europe. (Cameron said that do this would make him sick to the stomach ....)

Now in theory we could have been expelled from the Council of Europe on account of this ... but who on earth ever expected we would be? In a world where human rights are increasingly decried, no one is going to expel the UK, by no means a major offender globally, for something as minor as this. Of course, the issue was fudged instead - we came up with a compromise which was almost certainly by no means sufficient to comply with our obligations, the Committee of Ministers pretended that it did so suffice, and so life carries on.

I should prefer something of the sort in this case too, and hope that (pace Nick) the FIDE Council will show similar pragmatism - though it might be difficult if the Iranian federation does not play the game and refuses to go through the motions of making any minor concessions.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:27 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:16 pm
I should prefer something of the sort in this case too, and hope that (pace Nick) the FIDE Council will show similar pragmatism - though it might be difficult if the Iranian federation does not play the game and refuses to go through the motions of making any minor concessions.
The expected requirement is that Iranian players cease and desist from making a scene every time they are paired against Israeli players. At a pinch the Iranian Federation might get away with saying it was a personal protest, but even that would require a change in their behaviour.

If you want an analogy, what would or should the ECF do if one or more English players professed such a hatred of Zionism that they refused to play against ISR players?

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:52 pm

one compromise for Iran might be that the federation would offer to hold disciplinary inquiries for "unsportsmanlike behaviour" in the case of "unexplained defaults" and report the results/sanctions imposed at regular intervals to FIDE council. Council could then pretend that this sounds OK, and life could carry on, it would not be much more disingenuous than the position reached by UK with the European Council (in my example above) after 13 years of stalemate.

Or FIDE could perhaps (I have not exactly thought this through) enact that every default that "appears to be motivated by intolerance, whether racial, religious, or based on gender or sexual orientation and whether on the part of the player or of the government of his or her home country" should count as a loss of a game for rating purposes. Would that be so objectionable - and if passed, would people really complain as much when Iranians feel unable to play against Israelis?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:03 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:52 pm
one compromise for Iran might be that the federation would offer to hold disciplinary inquiries for "unsportsmanlike behaviour" in the case of "unexplained defaults" and report the results/sanctions imposed at regular intervals to FIDE council.
Given that apparently they have been holding awards ceremonies for those refusing to play, that would be a major change in position. A key point, even if denied, is that it isn't individual conscience among those refusing to play, but instructions and coercion from the Federation itself or the Iranian government.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:14 pm

well I've been assuming that the pressure comes from the government, though if what you say about prizes for refusal is correct, then I am less sure. Are you right though? And who among us really know how free the federation is? You'll forgive me if I prefer Soheil's account to yours ...

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:40 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:14 pm
Are you right though?
It's from the motion by Nigel and Malcolm

https://doc.fide.com/docs/OGA2020/OGA_A ... _3.2.1.pdf

They documented the known refusals to play against ISR players, some that slipped through the net and the response of the Iranian Federation and authorities.

NickFaulks
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:45 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:52 pm
Council could then pretend that this sounds OK, and life could carry on
I'm sure you have your reasons for wishing that players be allowed to refuse to play against opponents for whom they profess hatred, but I can assure you that is not the FIDE position. Most of the chess world, including some who might have sympathy in wider political terms, have simply had enough of the behaviour of this rogue federation.

It is not a good look for the chess world generally that so many of their top players and arbiters either have escaped from their country or are being prevented from doing so. Other Iranian sports federations are in trouble. Their top judoka is seeking asylum in Germany after being forced to throw a contest. One of their most popular wrestlers was tortured and executed ( or tortured to death, his family cannot find out ) for the crime of taking part in demonstrations against the regime. This cannot go on.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: What's GM short doing?!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:05 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:45 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:52 pm
Council could then pretend that this sounds OK, and life could carry on
I'm sure you have your reasons for wishing that players be allowed to refuse to play against opponents for whom they profess hatred, but I can assure you that is not the FIDE position.


That's ridiculous, most Iranian players bear no hatred whatever against Israeli players, I believe that Nigel has acknowledged this himself


[/quote]
Most of the chess world, including some who might have sympathy in wider political terms, have simply had enough of the behaviour of this rogue federation. [/quote]

Ah, so it's about having enough with this rogue nation now, is it? I think we are getting closer to it.

[/quote]

It is not a good look for the chess world generally that so many of their top players and arbiters either have escaped from their country or are being prevented from doing so. Other Iranian sports federations are in trouble. Their top judoka is seeking asylum in Germany after being forced to throw a contest. One of their most popular wrestlers was tortured and executed ( or tortured to death, his family cannot find out ) for the crime of taking part in demonstrations against the regime. This cannot go on.
[/quote]

Well, the chess world will solve none of these problems, but if taking out your objections to the regime in Iran on their chess players makes you feel better, or makes you think you are doing something about it ...

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