English Chess Forum

I seem to have a mental block and a dislike to put a piece back on its starting square after moving it.

I’ve seen it in grandmaster games, things like Bf8 or a Knight having to go back to b8 or g8 if attacked by a pawn. Another one is queen back to it’s starting square after moving. I seem to want to put it somewhere else unless there is an urgent point to be addressed

Does anyone else have this problem or block?

Yes to some degree. The point of a developing move is to develop the piece but there are lines in some openings where you move a piece back to its starting square, there's a line in the French Winawer where that happens. If a knight has to be rerouted that's a bit different but with bishops it does seem like a loss of tempi.

Kevin O'Rourke wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:45 pm

I seem to have a mental block and a dislike to put a piece back on its starting square after moving it.

I’ve seen it in grandmaster games, things like Bf8 or a Knight having to go back to b8 or g8 if attacked by a pawn. Another one is queen back to it’s starting square after moving. I seem to want to put it somewhere else unless there is an urgent point to be addressed

Does anyone else have this problem or block?

I think everyone has this to a certain degree. It came up in my second round game at the British
https://www.chess.com/live/game/6032657107

It took me some time to get my head around the concept.

One of the more extreme examples of this is the Brooklyn Variation of the Alekhine Defence. Not to everyone's taste.

John Upham wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:27 pm

One of the more extreme examples of this is the Brooklyn Variation of the Alekhine Defence. Not to everyone's taste.

I'd never heard of this before, but as soon as I read your post I thought it must be 2...Ng8. Has been played in Blitz by quite a few top GMs.

And in classical chess by Petrosian, and when he was world champion.

Saw a game on Red Hot Pawn recently:

rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/4p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 3

Whilst trying to figure out the reasoning behind White's next move I came to the conclusion.
White has a deep seated fear of the Bg4 pin.
h3 weakened the pawn structure, Be2 is too timid..so that is why here, White played 3.Ng1 (!).

There's this line in the Benoni:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 Bg7 8.Bb5+ Nfd7 9.a4 Qh4+ 10.g3 Qd8

That position I gave with Ng1to avoid the BG4 pin from memory was slightly wrong.
Just dug out the game. It is rather unique it had a Double Double Rook Sac (sic)

17 magnificent moves from two 1400 players. (White went onto win.)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 d6 4. Bxc6+ bxc6 5. Ng1 Nf6 6. d3 d5 7. Bg5 Be7 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Nc3 Qxg2 11. Qf3 Bh3 12. Qxh3 Qxh1 13. Qf3 Qxg1+ 14. Kd2 Qxa1 15. Qxc6+ Kf8 16. Qxa8+ Ke7 17. Qxh8
Not a blunder fest. Apart from 5.Ng1 (and no real harm done) everything else seems perfectly logical.
You can see a reason why White tossed his two Rooks off the board, likewise Black.
Yes 13.0-0-0 is good/better but if Black plays 'the obvious' 15...Ke7 to keep the Rooks then 16.Nd5+ mates.
(and can be done without taking either Black Rook!)

Good Thread Kevin. Backward undeveloping moves apparently win.

I used to play the Breyer a lot

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:35 pm

I used to play the Breyer a lot

The idea of playing.. Nf6, .. Be7 to enable 0-0 following up with .. Re8 and .. Bf8 will be familiar to most defenders of the Spanish. The similar idea with White of playing Nf3, Be2/b5, 0-0, Re1 and Bf1 is less common but can pop up in anti-Sicilians as well,

There was a line Hebden tried a few times in the Kings Indian of preparing .. f5 with .. Kh8 and .. Ng8.

There's also an old Yates idea in the Financetto Kings Indian revived by Gawain Jones where Black plays .. d6 and .. Nc6 to provoke d5. Instead of the Knight to the edge move of .. Na5, Black drops the Knight back to b8 with the idea of coming out again via d7 or a6 and eyeing the c5 square.

It's probably right to say it's much more common with the Black pieces, for whatever reason. With White I can recall a couple of times playing Nf3-g1 in the Classical English when I played that opening, but it was a theme rather than a standard and common variation.

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:09 pm

There's also an old Yates idea in the Financhetto Kings Indian revived by Gawain Jones where Black plays .. d6 and .. Nc6 to provoke d5. Instead of the Knight to the edge move of .. Na5, Black drops the Knight back to b8 with the idea of coming out again via d7 or a6 and eyeing the c5 square.

Heh, people have been playng that against me on lichess, I wondered what that was all about.

Most hotly debated one (but not such a surprising move)- Nd5 Sveshnikov:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8

Jonathan Bryant and I have played a couple of training games in the Caro-Kann recently.

After the first, I looked up top-level games that followed the same line and found this one - by move 14, McShane's opponent had played 7...Qa5, 8...Qa6, 13...Qb6 and finally 14...Qd8

[Event "43rd Olympiad 2018"] [Site "https://lichess.org/0PlsNYzx"] [Date "2018.09.26"] [Round "3.6"] [White "McShane, L. (2672)"] [Black "Fier, A. (2558)"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [WhiteElo "?"] [BlackElo "?"] [Variant "Standard"] [TimeControl "-"] [ECO "B12"] [Opening "Caro-Kann Defense: Advance Variation, Tal Variation"] [Termination "Normal"] 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. h4 h5 5. Bd3 Bxd3 6. Qxd3 e6 7. Nf3 Qa5+ 8. Nbd2 Qa6 9. c4 Nd7 10. O-O Nh6 11. b3 Nf5 12. Qc3 Be7 13. a4 Qb6 14. a5 Qd8 15. g3 O-O 16. Re1 f6 17. cxd5 cxd5 18. exf6 Nxf6 19. Ng5 Qd7 20. Ndf3 Qb5 21. Rxe6 Rac8 22. Qe1 Bb4 23. Qe2 Qxe2 24. Rxe2 Ne4 25. Kg2 Bc3 26. Ra4 Rfe8 27. Nh3 Nf6 28. Nf4 Nd6 29. Be3 a6 30. Kf1 Nb5 31. Nd3 Ne4 32. Bf4 Na7 33. Be3 Nc6 34. Nf4 Bxa5 35. Ra1 Nf6 1/2-1/2