Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

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Jacques Parry
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Jacques Parry » Sat May 08, 2021 9:06 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:47 pm
I was still under the impression that the law hasn’t been changed yet to demand vaccination status as a means of entry, and by doing so can be construed as discriminatory
What makes you think the law needs to be changed for this purpose? My understanding is that discrimination is lawful as long as it isn't done on the basis of certain characteristics (race, sex etc), and vaccination status isn't currently one of them.

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Alan Walton » Sat May 08, 2021 10:20 am

Jacques Parry wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:06 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:47 pm
I was still under the impression that the law hasn’t been changed yet to demand vaccination status as a means of entry, and by doing so can be construed as discriminatory
What makes you think the law needs to be changed for this purpose? My understanding is that discrimination is lawful as long as it isn't done on the basis of certain characteristics (race, sex etc), and vaccination status isn't currently one of them.
I not sure, this is just what I have been reading/watching/listening to on the subject of vaccination passports; that asking for somebodies vaccination status for basic services could possibly breach human rights around privacy of medical records; and that a law change will be require because vaccines are not mandatory in the UK

Admittedly this area is a minefield, and hence why over the pass few weeks the notion of passport vaccines seems to have died down quite a lot, because the government envisage many legal challenges if it is introduced that vaccination status will bar you from activities in the UK

Paul Buswell
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Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Paul Buswell » Sat May 08, 2021 2:09 pm

I wouldn't call playing in a chess congress anything near a 'basic service'.

I will wait and see what organisers require, and only then decide whether I can accept those requirements. If I can't I simply won't enter, and won't grumble, it'll just be how it is. My only grumble ever might be if it was an ECF congress, where - as an ECF member - I would have some tenuous standing.

PB

Roger Lancaster
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat May 08, 2021 2:23 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:06 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:47 pm
I was still under the impression that the law hasn’t been changed yet to demand vaccination status as a means of entry, and by doing so can be construed as discriminatory
What makes you think the law needs to be changed for this purpose? My understanding is that discrimination is lawful as long as it isn't done on the basis of certain characteristics (race, sex etc), and vaccination status isn't currently one of them.
I'm not a lawyer but presumably it could be argued, given that it seems indisputable that certain ethnic groups are more likely than certain others to have been vaccinated, that the proposed clause indirectly discriminates on grounds of ethnicity. I'm not competent to say or even guess whether such a challenge would be successful but it would seem likely to at least get off the ground.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 08, 2021 2:36 pm

At various levels, there could be restrictions which might be mandatory or advisory.

There's the legal position which at present would make the event illegal. That's expected to be lifted in June, but will it be replaced by "advice" which may have the same effect? There's potentially restrictions imposed by the venue itself. Then there's what FIDE and the ECF do or say. They can make their advice semi-mandatory by refusing to rate or sanction non-compliant events. Finally there's the organisers themselves making up rules under the cover of risk assessment.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat May 08, 2021 2:37 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:23 pm
Jacques Parry wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:06 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:47 pm
I was still under the impression that the law hasn’t been changed yet to demand vaccination status as a means of entry, and by doing so can be construed as discriminatory
What makes you think the law needs to be changed for this purpose? My understanding is that discrimination is lawful as long as it isn't done on the basis of certain characteristics (race, sex etc), and vaccination status isn't currently one of them.
I'm not a lawyer but presumably it could be argued, given that it seems indisputable that certain ethnic groups are more likely than certain others to have been vaccinated, that the proposed clause indirectly discriminates on grounds of ethnicity. I'm not competent to say or even guess whether such a challenge would be successful but it would seem likely to at least get off the ground.
No it wouldn't, because proof of vaccination is a 'relevant' factor. If you advertised a post for someone to work from home where being vaccinated was a requirement then it could be argued this was discriminatory.

NickFaulks
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Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by NickFaulks » Sat May 08, 2021 3:04 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:37 pm
No it wouldn't
I don't know how you can make these statements with such total confidence. All sorts of legal actions "get off the ground".

As to whether it would ultimately meet with any success, ( assuming Government restrictions off and no new legislation ) I'm not sure which way I would bet. However, I would bet that it would cause the organisers a further problem which they could do without.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat May 08, 2021 3:11 pm

The example that is usually quoted is advertising a job with a requirement for an HGV license. If this is an 'office job' then this would be consider discriminatory because very few women have an HGV license. However, you can clearly advertise a job that requires an HGV license because it is relevant to some positions.

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Alan Walton » Sat May 08, 2021 3:28 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:11 pm
The example that is usually quoted is advertising a job with a requirement for an HGV license. If this is an 'office job' then this would be consider discriminatory because very few women have an HGV license. However, you can clearly advertise a job that requires an HGV license because it is relevant to some positions.
But having a driving license is written in legislation; whereas have a vaccine passport is not, hence why I am saying the law will have to be written in legislation first

But not being a constitutional expert somebody can correct me

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat May 08, 2021 3:32 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:28 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:11 pm
The example that is usually quoted is advertising a job with a requirement for an HGV license. If this is an 'office job' then this would be consider discriminatory because very few women have an HGV license. However, you can clearly advertise a job that requires an HGV license because it is relevant to some positions.
But having a driving license is written in legislation; whereas have a vaccine passport is not, hence why I am saying the law will have to be written in legislation first

But not being a constitutional expert somebody can correct me
Alan,
Just to be clear, I have no idea whether requiring a 'vaccine passport' would be legal or not. I am just saying that it wouldn't be illegal on the grounds of racial discrimination.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Alan Walton » Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:32 pm
Alan Walton wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:28 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:11 pm
The example that is usually quoted is advertising a job with a requirement for an HGV license. If this is an 'office job' then this would be consider discriminatory because very few women have an HGV license. However, you can clearly advertise a job that requires an HGV license because it is relevant to some positions.
But having a driving license is written in legislation; whereas have a vaccine passport is not, hence why I am saying the law will have to be written in legislation first

But not being a constitutional expert somebody can correct me
Alan,
Just to be clear, I have no idea whether requiring a 'vaccine passport' would be legal or not. I am just saying that it wouldn't be illegal on the grounds of racial discrimination.
And just to be clear I didn't say racial discrimination

NickFaulks
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by NickFaulks » Sat May 08, 2021 3:53 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:36 pm
Then there's what FIDE and the ECF do or say.
I can say with a fair degree of confidence that FIDE will not make problems.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat May 08, 2021 4:25 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:37 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:23 pm
Jacques Parry wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:06 am


What makes you think the law needs to be changed for this purpose? My understanding is that discrimination is lawful as long as it isn't done on the basis of certain characteristics (race, sex etc), and vaccination status isn't currently one of them.
I'm not a lawyer but presumably it could be argued, given that it seems indisputable that certain ethnic groups are more likely than certain others to have been vaccinated, that the proposed clause indirectly discriminates on grounds of ethnicity. I'm not competent to say or even guess whether such a challenge would be successful but it would seem likely to at least get off the ground.
No it wouldn't, because proof of vaccination is a 'relevant' factor. If you advertised a post for someone to work from home where being vaccinated was a requirement then it could be argued this was discriminatory.
Matthew - I admire your confidence. The WHO, for one, doesn't clearly share your view in relation to international travel - see below. International travel - in common with participation in a chess tournament - involves mingling with others whereas your "work from home" example doesn't.

The World Health Organization’s emergency committee said on Monday it was against international travellers being required to have proof of vaccination, partly on grounds such a measure would deepen inequities.

“Do not require proof of vaccination as a condition of entry, given the limited (although growing) evidence about the performance of vaccines in reducing transmission and the persistent inequity in the global vaccine distribution,” the committee said in a statement summarising its April 15 meeting.

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat May 08, 2021 4:29 pm

That has nothing to do with the point I was making

TimWall

Re: Northumbria Masters, 26-30 August, 2021

Post by TimWall » Sun May 09, 2021 11:12 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:29 pm
That has nothing to do with the point I was making
Hi Matt, I sent you a PM. Please get in touch when convenient.
Best wishes,
Tim

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