Racist terminology in chess problems

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:20 pm

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding. It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.
Well, nor were quite a few other words that now are?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Paul Habershon
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Paul Habershon » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:20 pm
Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding. It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.
Well, nor were quite a few other words that now are?
Agreed. That's why it's such a pity.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:00 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:20 pm
Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding. It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.
Well, nor were quite a few other words that now are?

It’s also worth asking if there was never any issue with the word or whether when we say “wasn’t so originally” we mean ‘across the board’ or ‘for a certain subset of people’

Tim Spanton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:47 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:00 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:20 pm
Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding. It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.
Well, nor were quite a few other words that now are?

It’s also worth asking if there was never any issue with the word or whether when we say “wasn’t so originally” we mean ‘across the board’ or ‘for a certain subset of people’
Even the N word started off as non-derogatory, and has regained that sense more than once, according to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger

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John Upham
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by John Upham » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:58 am

British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

David Sedgwick
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:10 pm

John Upham wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:58 am
Has anyone read this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-53446494

John
I agree with the decision to replace the headstone. The original wording only distracted from the message.

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John Upham
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by John Upham » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:10 pm
John Upham wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:58 am
Has anyone read this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-53446494

John
I agree with the decision to replace the headstone. The original wording only distracted from the message.
How would you answer the comments of historian James Holland?
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:19 pm

I surely can't be alone in wishing that more time and effort was spent in combatting ultra-right-wing groups with unashamedly racist views and rather less on arguing over a word, admittedly inappropriate in today's climate, written without racist intent in a context where its existence would - but for this thread - have remained largely unnoticed and thus have caused offence to very few, if anyone.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:23 pm

Then wish away, Roger, but here's a question that's been raised and it would be better to address it than not.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:52 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:23 pm
Then wish away, Roger, but here's a question that's been raised and it would be better to address it than not.
Some questions don't merit answers.

Brian Egdell
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Brian Egdell » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:05 pm

I think it's wrong to suggest that the word, if encountered by a modern-day reader (or a reader in 1976 for that matter) for whom the connotations have personal relevance, would have remained largely unnoticed and caused little offence. The difference nowadays is that people feel more empowered to speak up and challenge the discrimination than they did 45 years ago.

Feeling empowered to speak up is an important issue. Not being shouted down by almost everyone when you do so is a key factor. I remember an incident in the early 1980s along similar lines. I can't link to any source, but from memory it was written by the editor of a major British chess magazine. The approximate details are as follows. An author had produced a children's chess book which used language clearly designed to make the game seem exciting to young people. It pitted the White and Black pieces as opposing armies and, unfortunately, used language along the lines of a race war, almost certainly unintentionally but nonetheless. A teacher who had acquired the book for use in their classroom called the author out publicly on their use of "racist" language in the book. The editor of the chess magazine reported on this and basically ridiculed the whistle-blower in no uncertain terms, calling the original book an "innocent frolic" and making the juvenile observation that the main teaching union's name was often abbreviated to NUT.

That incident occurred just a few years later than 1976 when the problem book referred to by Justin Horton was published. The era was dogged by a culture in which you could not call such (potential) racism out without suffering a major backlash. We need to make sure that we have moved on from that shutting-down culture of not allowing racism to be exposed for what it is, whether the racism is intentional or not.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:21 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:52 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:23 pm
Then wish away, Roger, but here's a question that's been raised and it would be better to address it than not.
Some questions don't merit answers.
That comment casts more light on this discussion than anything I could ever say.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:23 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:21 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:52 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:23 pm
Then wish away, Roger, but here's a question that's been raised and it would be better to address it than not.
Some questions don't merit answers.
That comment casts more light on this discussion than anything I could ever say.
A phrase concerning pots and kettles comes to mind there, Justin.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:25 pm

In all seriousness Roger, thank you very much, you've been most helpful.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 pm

Brian Egdell wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:05 pm
I think it's wrong to suggest that the word, if encountered by a modern-day reader (or a reader in 1976 for that matter) for whom the connotations have personal relevance, would have remained largely unnoticed and caused little offence. The difference nowadays is that people feel more empowered to speak up and challenge the discrimination than they did 45 years ago.

Feeling empowered to speak up is an important issue. Not being shouted down by almost everyone when you do so is a key factor. I remember an incident in the early 1980s along similar lines. I can't link to any source, but from memory it was written by the editor of a major British chess magazine. The approximate details are as follows. An author had produced a children's chess book which used language clearly designed to make the game seem exciting to young people. It pitted the White and Black pieces as opposing armies and, unfortunately, used language along the lines of a race war, almost certainly unintentionally but nonetheless. A teacher who had acquired the book for use in their classroom called the author out publicly on their use of "racist" language in the book. The editor of the chess magazine reported on this and basically ridiculed the whistle-blower in no uncertain terms, calling the original book an "innocent frolic" and making the juvenile observation that the main teaching union's name was often abbreviated to NUT.

That incident occurred just a few years later than 1976 when the problem book referred to by Justin Horton was published. The era was dogged by a culture in which you could not call such (potential) racism out without suffering a major backlash. We need to make sure that we have moved on from that shutting-down culture of not allowing racism to be exposed for what it is, whether the racism is intentional or not.
I'm not disputing that use of the word caused some offence but only to a small number of people and, even to them, not on the same scale as a racially-motivated physical or even verbal attack. In much the same way, I can see that "night watchman" will upset some cricket fans as sexist but I'd prefer those people "more empowered to speak up and challenge the discrimination" to speak up and challenge instead those abusing female cricketers.

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