Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:49 pm

See Bill Frost's latest editorial.

He's dragged up the old topic of what constitutes a bona fide member of a club, I see. I don't think there is any way at this level to define this other than with reference to the discretion of the relevant team captain. There can be any number of reasons why someone might legitimately join a club but not play in internal competitions (indeed, some clubs I've played for have no internal competitions).

(With regard to the specific case of the DCCA team rapidplay, where I fielded a player who isn't a bona fide member of Barnstaple, I did contact all the genuine Barnstaple players I knew before placing an open advert on Facebook. As it happened, the first person to respond was a very strong player with whom we came close to winning the thing.)

John Upham
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by John Upham » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:03 am

I would consider a bona fide member to be one who has full voting rights at a general meeting of some kind : AGM, EGM or SGM.

This topic has been widely discussed in both the Surrey Border League and Berkshire League in dealing with a new phenomenon that has arisen in the last 2-3 years. Maybe Atticus and Widnes Chess Clubs also have strong views on these matters?
Last edited by John Upham on Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:38 am

John Upham wrote:I would consider a bona fide member to be one who has full voting rights at a general meeting of some kind : AGM, EGM or SGM.
That doesn't necessarily help you: the club may not have defined who has full voting rights at a general meeting, or it may have defined it in such a way as to make the definition circular.

Eoin Devane
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:21 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Eoin Devane » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:07 am

I imagine that most clubs would define a member as being someone who has paid a membership fee, for a period covering the current time. However, this raises two problems - 1. that some clubs are moving to a kind of pay-as-you-play scheme in place of a yearly membership fee and 2. what is to stop a player paying the membership fee on the morning of an event, and then being reimbursed for his "expenses"? Then we also run into a problem with clubs such as my own (Oxford University) that offer life membership, in that we have to start distinguishing between active and inactive members ... but then I guess there are always going to need to be different rules regarding University clubs anyway. :)

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:21 am

I've just blogged on this subject. I'm afraid Bill's eligibility proposal got rather short shrift.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19262
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:22 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:He's dragged up the old topic of what constitutes a bona fide member of a club, I see.
The 4NCL quite rightly used the concept of a "team" rather than a club. This is a distinction which could be taken on by leagues. So you could have a team which might, for example, consist of players who attended the same university in the past. I would distinguish between teams which "hire" a guest player for the entire season - which is legitimate. Teams who hire a player specifically for the crunch match against their local rivals might present a problem. I would however observe that importing players as wild cards is an established part of 4NCL practice.

To my mind the whole bona fide thing is a bit obsolete - You should define eligibility as someone who is notified as part of your squad at the beginning or during the season or is a wild card if your league supports the concept. There are any number of players who are members of clubs only for the purpose of playing competitive league chess and who have little interest in internal club competitions or playing "friendly" games on a club night.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2408
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:36 am

Hi

This problem of hiring 'outsiders' was quite rife in Edinburgh a number of
seasons ago.

I recall one enterprising club loaded it's weaker 2nd team with 2000+ players
from Glasgow and Falkirk when it had a game v a club that was in contention
with it's stronger team for the league.

I think it's kind of funny the length's some team captians will go to
and in a way shows their desire to win. Nothing wrong with that.

Now Edinburgh teams have to declare a pool of players pre-season
who they intend to field and cannot add to it unless they get
permission from the league sec.

What is against the grain is loading a team of strangers for a cup final.

Though I did play for a club who asked me to play for them
in the final of cup competition in another league.

"What about the lad who played in all the other rounds, won't
he feel a bit miffed at being dropped?" I asked.

"No. it's me." came the reply.

I played and won and discovered at least half of the team I was in were guests.

All's fair in love and chess.

Good Blog Jack, first time I've been there but the colour scheme had me
diving for my sun glasses. :wink:

benedgell
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: Somerset
Contact:

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by benedgell » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:05 am

As it happened, the first person to respond was a very strong player
Aww, shucks, I've never been described as very strong before. That's made my week no end. I'm not sure whether the eligibility thing is a reference to me, and if it is Jack's response on the blog is a much more eloquent and accurate reply then I would've managed. As far as the Somerset part of the editorial, I've no interest in getting into a slanging match but needless to say I've sent an email expressing both my disagreement with the comments, and my reasons for entering 2 teams in the graded section.

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1622
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Ben Purton » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:40 am

Your pretty strong Razors.....


Replying to this thread, OK the White incident I really can't comment as I was not there. I heard Michaels account and if I wanted to make a statement I would listen to Richard Almond's statement.

Secondly this thread of yours Jack and this Bill guy. Well for one making more rules is not a wise decision, firstly Chess clubs are fighting a battle V the Internet almost the same as Royal Mail V E-mail. Personally being uptight regarding chess is so poor. I would never ever play for a team purely for Chess reasons. By this I mean I play for all my 4 clubs for Social reasons.

Sambuca Sharks- My favourite obviously
Drunken Knights London and Surrey- Great great time if I havent got work at 8am the next day.
University of Bristol- Obvious why I play.

If Bristol league or Bristol claimed I could not play for these because I am not from the region this is ludicrous. Firstly Bona-Fide players are needed often as fillers when you get screwed over last minute. You would expect a fellow captain to appreciate this situation.
John Upham wrote:This topic has been widely discussed in both the Surrey Border League and Berkshire League in dealing with a new phenomenon that has arisen in the last 2-3 years
John what the ..... does this mean exactly.



On another note, Counties. Under the rules I am 110% sure that if your county does not enter a given section any players elligble for the none entered side can join a side of there choosing. This occured in the U18 County tournament when "Sambuca Sharks" Aka Hampshire fielded almost the entirity of my squad because Sussex did not enter.

Technically speaking I believe I am elligble for:

Norfolk(lived there for 3+ years)
Oxfordshire(See above for 10 years)
Berkshire (live here now)
Middlesex
Surrey soonish
Wherever Bristol League falls under....


Anyway! Ill keep my affliction to Middlesex as they have the nicest team.


Kind regards

Ben
Last edited by Carl Hibbard on Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Modified slightly after user complaint
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:52 am

Ben Purton wrote: Technically speaking I believe I am elligble for:

Norfolk(lived there for 3+ years)
Oxfordshire(See above for 10 years)
Berkshire (live here now)
Middlesex
Surrey soonish
Wherever Bristol League falls under....

Ben
Bristol League will fall under Gloucestershire, presumably.

There must be some way of monitoring county appearances. You should have to go through the ECF to let them know which county you intend to play for for the season. County captains can just register a list of x players before the start of the season. You can only add players to that list if those players haven't played for another county in the same season. If you wish to switch allegiance, you can do so at the end of the season. That would be a simple solution to the problem.

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1622
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Ben Purton » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:57 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Ben Purton wrote: Technically speaking I believe I am elligble for:

Norfolk(lived there for 3+ years)
Oxfordshire(See above for 10 years)
Berkshire (live here now)
Middlesex
Surrey soonish
Wherever Bristol League falls under....

Ben
Bristol League will fall under Gloucestershire, presumably.

There must be some way of monitoring county appearances. You should have to go through the ECF to let them know which county you intend to play for for the season. County captains can just register a list of x players before the start of the season. You can only add players to that list if those players haven't played for another county in the same season. If you wish to switch allegiance, you can do so at the end of the season. That would be a simple solution to the problem.

Through the ECF? Have we not already realised that they don't record game fees and membership entirely accurate, let alone this. Also you can't play for multiple counties in same competition. I could play for 2 in Norfolk and someone else on grounds its minor and open tournaments. But couldnt play for 2 purely open teams.
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:07 am

Ben Purton wrote: Through the ECF? Have we not already realised that they don't record game fees and membership entirely accurate, let alone this.
Well, it should be able to go through the ECF. If they can't be trusted with the organisation, then we're in trouble.
Ben Purton wrote:Also you can't play for multiple counties in same competition. I could play for 2 in Norfolk and someone else on grounds its minor and open tournaments. But couldnt play for 2 purely open teams.
Well, that still seems a little suspect to me. I think it should just be one county for the season, whether they're in it or not.

User avatar
Anthony Higgs
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:31 pm
Location: Cloud Nine

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Anthony Higgs » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:32 am

This issue caused a rule change in the Mid-Sussex League a couple of seasons ago after one club was accused of fielding titled players with no connection to the club. At least one of the players actually had very good reason to play for them but feeling was such that the following overly complex (in my opinion) rule was introduced to define 'bona fide':

3.1 Eligibility for a team To be eligible to play in a team, a player must comply with at least 2 of the following criteria:-

Payment of a current season annual subscription to the club;
Having their main residence or place of work / education within the County of Sussex (East or West);
Having their main residence within 20 miles outside of the East / West Sussex county boundary;
Having played at least one full season in an internal club competition in the previous few years; i.e. played and completed the full schedule;
Having played at least 40% of matches for the club in two previous MSL seasons in the previous five years;
Birth in Sussex.

A new team member will be deemed ineligible unless the club has furnished to the Tournament Controller proof of which two rules they qualify under before or concurrent with the submission of the match result [rule 10.2]
http://www.horshamchessclub.org.uk - ECF Club of the Year 2010

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1622
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Ben Purton » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:36 am

We All know Sussex is the moody old men county of the Open league, so no surprises from my computer...
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1622
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Chess Devon editorial on various issues...

Post by Ben Purton » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:46 am

My grounds for this is 2 of your players have complained against me on different incidents....This despite me scoring an unbeaten record for Sussex years ago.

One complained I wore an "poor choice of headwear" I was wearing a beanie with literally nothing on it.

Another player went further and claimed I was a Right wing racist because I wore a Stone Island Jumper.......A unique statement. Especially as the National Front would probaly beat me for my relgion but don't worry Sussex , Ill wear M & S if I play you again!!

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Post Reply