The Economics of Chess Clubs

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Nick Burrows
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:29 pm
£5 a month in affluent Oxfordshire is "eye watering"! This is everything that is wrong with the mentality of the incumbent chess playing community. You want excellent facilities, and find <£1.50 a week "eye watering".
Just because Oxfordshire is affluent does not mean all of its residents are.
I found it "eye watering" because it was literally double what I was accustomed to from a club just down the road, also in "affluent Oxfordshire".

I also don't attend the club night regularly, so if I were to play only 6 home matches in a season, that's £10 per game :)

Tim Spanton
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Tim Spanton » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:37 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:45 pm
Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:29 pm
£5 a month in affluent Oxfordshire is "eye watering"! This is everything that is wrong with the mentality of the incumbent chess playing community. You want excellent facilities, and find <£1.50 a week "eye watering".
Just because Oxfordshire is affluent does not mean all of its residents are.
I found it "eye watering" because it was literally double what I was accustomed to from a club just down the road, also in "affluent Oxfordshire".

I also don't attend the club night regularly, so if I were to play only 6 home matches in a season, that's £10 per game :)
Yes, but possibly you might play in a similar number of away matches, so 12 games in all for £5 a game. Compare that with many one-game-a-day tournaments and it is a low figure, for example many (most?) people in the Masters at Hastings 2021-22 will play £120 for 10 games, which works out at £12 a game.

Ian Thompson
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:49 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:37 pm
Yes, but possibly you might play in a similar number of away matches, so 12 games in all for £5 a game. Compare that with many one-game-a-day tournaments and it is a low figure, for example many (most?) people in the Masters at Hastings 2021-22 will play £120 for 10 games, which works out at £12 a game.
Hastings, though, is expensive. Two to three times what you might pay for a similar tournament in Europe if you don't qualify for a reduced entry fee. If I wanted to play in Hastings and had to pay that, I would choose not to enter and go somewhere else.

Tim Spanton
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Tim Spanton » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:49 pm
Tim Spanton wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:37 pm
Yes, but possibly you might play in a similar number of away matches, so 12 games in all for £5 a game. Compare that with many one-game-a-day tournaments and it is a low figure, for example many (most?) people in the Masters at Hastings 2021-22 will play £120 for 10 games, which works out at £12 a game.
Hastings, though, is expensive. Two to three times what you might pay for a similar tournament in Europe if you don't qualify for a reduced entry fee. If I wanted to play in Hastings and had to pay that, I would choose not to enter and go somewhere else.
Hastings is expensive, but I am currently playing in Calvià, Mallorca, where the standard entry fee is 80 euros for nine games, which works out at just under £8 a game at current exchange rates

Andrew Wainwright
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:39 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:05 pm
One of the attractions of competitive chess for many of us is that it can be practised, and enjoyed, with *relatively* little financial outlay.

So do you value the "relatively inexpensive" nature of the game above: (i) good facilities, (ii) good organisation, (iii) development of new players (so you have someone new to play in 15-20 years when a large proportion of the current community have stopped playing), and (iv) creating an environment appealing to a broad spectrum of society (including women and juniors)?

Andrew Wainwright
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm

There is no progress without investment. With no progress all we will continue to see is a general decline.

COVID has ironically done Chess a huge favour. A new generation of players started playing online 12-18 months ago. They have no interest in the "old ways" of chess. They have no concept around what the "cost" of playing chess is or should be. They are a digitally sophisticated generation, who want to see good facilities, supported by modern digital infrastructure. As a result, they are willing to pay for facilities that support these expectations.

The chess community needs to catch up quickly with what is happening...

Nick Burrows
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:59 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:37 pm
Yes, but possibly you might play in a similar number of away matches, so 12 games in all for £5 a game. Compare that with many one-game-a-day tournaments and it is a low figure, for example many (most?) people in the Masters at Hastings 2021-22 will play £120 for 10 games, which works out at £12 a game.
Hastings also provides Fide rated games at a slow time limit vs a higher standard of opposition.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:06 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
A new generation of players started playing online 12-18 months ago. They have no interest in the "old ways" of chess.
Can we be sure they are new? After all casual chess has been available online for twenty five years or more without established chess bodies and organisers taking much notice, There was a considerable growth in the availability of formal tournaments etc., but to what extent were these new players and not just existing OTB players changing medium ?

The old problem still remains. Unless you have separate rooms, casual chess and formal chess don't mix particularly well.

NickFaulks
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:16 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
As a result, they are willing to pay for facilities that support these expectations.

The chess community needs to catch up quickly with what is happening...
Don't let us stop you, and do let us know how you get on.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Ian Thompson
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:12 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 pm
Hastings is expensive, but I am currently playing in Calvià, Mallorca, where the standard entry fee is 80 euros for nine games, which works out at just under £8 a game at current exchange rates
Also on the expensive side. The entry fees, converted to pounds at the exchange rate I got on my credit card, for last few European tournaments I've played in have been:
  • £50.88
  • £42.95
  • £42.55
  • £50.15
  • £44.13 (possibly after a 25% FM discount)
  • £35.18
  • £28.67

Paul Cooksey
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:30 pm

In fairness, there are chess clubs with nice venues. This one came up in another thread recently: https://www.royalautomobileclub.co.uk/e ... ups/chess/

I'd be a bit surprised if we saw a lot more clubs of that type springing up. But who knows?

David Sedgwick
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:10 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:30 pm
In fairness, there are chess clubs with nice venues. This one came up in another thread recently: https://www.royalautomobileclub.co.uk/e ... ups/chess/
In order to be a member of the RAC Chess Circle, you have to be a member of the RAC Club itself.

The last time that I heard, there was a waiting list.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:33 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:10 pm
In order to be a member of the RAC Chess Circle, you have to be a member of the RAC Club itself.
The link comes up with a snippet of news not mentioned elsewhere.
The 139th Varsity Match
Pall Mall, Committee Room
Saturday 23 October, 12.30pm
The Club is pleased to host the 139th Varsity Chess Match at Pall Mall. The Varsity match is the longest running continuous chess match in the world and whilst Covid has forced us to move from our traditional March date to October the event will be better than ever.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Joey Stewart » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:15 am

I guess the old boys network bypasses the need for membership that us normal folks would normally have to go through - even the varsity match itself, often hailed as being a bigger deal then the world championships, is often of a standard you could see on any 4ncl div 2 weekend.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: The Economics of Chess Clubs

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:57 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:10 pm
In order to be a member of the RAC Chess Circle, you have to be a member of the RAC Club itself.

The last time that I heard, there was a waiting list.
Of course every nightclub in Britain, no matter how terrible, has a queue outside it too. As Joey notes, the doormen have different criteria for letting people jump the queue. But part of a business model where something is expensive is to make it exclusive.

Golf clubs too. Personally I prefer chess to golf, so I'd be willing to pay more to be part of a chess club than I would a golf club. But if a chess club was charging fees equivalent to a golf club I am not sure how that would change it in ways I would prefer, unless I was keen to keep out the riff-raff and confident I was not part of it.

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