A question about noise during a match

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Dave Roberts
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A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:25 pm

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and returning to chess club play. The reason I stopped playing club matches was that I had to forfeit a game as my insulin pump beeped an alarm during the game. Is that standard? As I need the pump for medical reasons, it's not like a mobile phone, though that is the argument my opponent made and the arbiter agreed with. I am concerned that this could happen again, so before I agree to play on a team, I'd like to know what the policy is.

dave

William Metcalfe
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by William Metcalfe » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:43 pm

Sorry Dave that is some real bs that happened to you no that should not be standard.It might be best for you to imform the opposing captain of your medical condition and your pump.I would dp the same if i was playing a congress i would explain to the arbiter.You should never be penalised for a medical condition.
I have a very serious arthritic illness that meens i have to get up and walk around quite a lot when i play.Also it a good job drug teasting does not happen at local league or congress level or i would be screwed the amount of morphine i am on lol.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

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Adam Raoof
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:44 pm

What match was this?
What League was it played in?
Who were the teams?
Who was the arbiter?
Did you appeal?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:53 pm

The exact text of the mobile phone rule is as follows (emphasis mine):
FIDE Laws Of Chess wrote:12.3b Without the permission of the arbiter a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue, unless they are completely switched off. If any such device produces a sound, the player shall lose the game. The opponent shall win. However, if the opponent cannot win the game by any series of legal moves, his score shall be a draw.
Your insulin beeper is not a means of communication, so this law does not apply to it. It may, on the other hand, be subject to this law:
FIDE Laws Of Chess wrote:12.6 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims, unreasonable offers of a draw or the introduction of a source of noise into the playing area.
Now 12.6 is one of those rules where the punishment for an offence is up to the discretion of the arbiter. My take on this is that very few arbiters would default you if they knew beforehand that the device was an insulin beeper, so your best policy is to tell the arbiter before the game that you've got one.

Peter Rhodes
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Peter Rhodes » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:08 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The reason I stopped playing club matches was that I had to forfeit a game as my insulin pump beeped an alarm during the game. ... that is the argument my opponent made and the arbiter agreed with.
That is absolutely appalling, the player and arbiter should hang their heads in shame.

Discrimination on the grounds of disability (either directly or indirectly) should have no place in chess and when it arises, it should be dealt with severely.

I hope that someone from the ECF can say something formally.


Jack rightly mentions rule 12.6, my personal feeling is that the noise from an insulin alarm is no more of a burden than the noise a blind player might make when dictating his moves into his portable recording device.
Chess Amateur.

Dave Roberts
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:35 pm

Thanks a lot for the support. This happened about 10 years ago in Scotland - I was playing for the Bon Accord Chess club in Aberdeen. The arbiter's name was John something or other. I should have appealed, but decided not to. I was pretty upset about it at the time, as I felt it was blatant discrimination and was very surprised others didn't see it that way.

I feel better about returning to the world of organised chess - I've been playing friendlies at a club here in Coventry and was asked if I'd like to play for a team. I'll agree now!

Thanks again for all of your responses!

dave

Paul McKeown
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:47 pm

That is a terrible story. I would agree that both the opponent and the arbiter should hang their heads in shame if what you say is true. I would be happy to play you, or have you in the same team. Good luck.
"Liberty without equality is of noble sound but squalid meaning" - LT Hobhouse

Roger de Coverly
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Thanks a lot for the support. This happened about 10 years ago in Scotland - I was playing for the Bon Accord Chess club in Aberdeen.
The specific mobile phone rule didn't come in until 2005. Before that, it would perhaps have been a local interpretation or a more general "distract the opponent" penalty. Either way it lacks justification.

There's also a forum at Chess Scotland www.chessscotland.com. The Scottish forum is "official" though.

E Michael White
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by E Michael White » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Thanks a lot for the support. This happened about 10 years ago in Scotland
If this happened 10 years ago the arbiter's decision is worse than it appears. The rule quoted by Jack - 12.6 was 12.5 in 1997 - 2001 and did not make specific mention of noise. At that time the rule said:-

12.5. It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever; this includes the persistent offer of a draw.

Dave Roberts
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:19 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Thanks a lot for the support. This happened about 10 years ago in Scotland - I was playing for the Bon Accord Chess club in Aberdeen.
The specific mobile phone rule didn't come in until 2005. Before that, it would perhaps have been a local interpretation or a more general "distract the opponent" penalty. Either way it lacks justification.

There's also a forum at Chess Scotland http://www.chessscotland.com. The Scottish forum is "official" though.
Thanks - but as I'm in England now this forum is fine. My opponent claimed it was a distraction and, as the penalty at the time (locally possibly) for mobile phones was forfeiting the game, the arbiter gave my opponent the game. My concern was, before I start playing here, that a similar interpretation might happen. I can avoid some of the alarms the pump gives but not all of them.

Dave Roberts
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:47 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:That is a terrible story. I would agree that both the opponent and the arbiter should hang their heads in shame if what you say is true. I would be happy to play you, or have you in the same team. Good luck.
It was. I had just started playing for them and was more upset that my team didn't support me. But it was a while ago, so hopefully this time around it will go better!

If you are ever in the Coventry area - I'd love to meet up for a game!

Alex McFarlane
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:49 pm

We do tend to apply the Laws more rigourously north of the border. But this was obviously wrong at the time. It could certainly now be seen as bringing a source of noise into the playing hall and as such Jack is correct in saying that you should inform the arbiter. If this is done then I would doubt very much if any penalty would be given. However if the arbiter is not warned then you may expect some penalty, which I suggest would normally be a warning or slight time penalty. If though it distracted a player in a time scramble the penalty may be more severe.

Since the original incident was 10 years ago I am loathe to approach John Clifford (if indeed it was him) for his account of events.

Dave Roberts
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:08 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:We do tend to apply the Laws more rigourously north of the border. But this was obviously wrong at the time. It could certainly now be seen as bringing a source of noise into the playing hall and as such Jack is correct in saying that you should inform the arbiter. If this is done then I would doubt very much if any penalty would be given. However if the arbiter is not warned then you may expect some penalty, which I suggest would normally be a warning or slight time penalty. If though it distracted a player in a time scramble the penalty may be more severe.

Since the original incident was 10 years ago I am loathe to approach John Clifford (if indeed it was him) for his account of events.
Hi Alex,

that's very good advice about informing the arbiter - thanks for that. I hadn't considered it, as alarms are very infrequent (once or twice a year). I in no way wanted to dredge up the past, as it was a long time ago, so there is no need to bring it up with John Clifford. I honestly can't remember his last name.

dave

Dave Roberts
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by Dave Roberts » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:23 pm

Hi,

just wanted to thank everyone again for their input. I've decided to play on a team, which is starting next week. And I've taken the advice to let the arbiter know about the pump.

Wishing you all a very good new year!

dave roberts

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David Shepherd
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Re: A question about noise during a match

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:42 pm

In my opinion even though it is very sensible to inform the arbiter in advance, even if that is not done I would consider it inappropriate in the circumstances to award any penalty other than possibly time added to the opponent if they have been distracted, and I suspect that most opponents would object if any other penalty were imposed. It would also be sensible to warn your opponent though that there is a slight chance they may hear a beep.

If I became aware of a player being defaulted in such circumstances in any tournament I was in, then I would probably withdraw from the tournament in protest. It is like saying any player with a disability is distracting their opponent. I really do not understand the concept of a warning (other than simply to inform the arbiter in future) what do they want you to do turn off the machine?

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