Help needed please

[Angus French]

Ernie, surely this would be copyright infringement.

I never thought I'd see a former policeman using this forum to solicit others to break the law.

[John Saunders]

"Ok, Ernie... don't be a silly boy... this is the BCM, son... we've got you and your website covered... now move away from that photocopier, nice and slow, we don't want anyone to get hurt, do we?..."

Seriously... are you a subscriber to BCM? If not, frankly it is not in BCM's interests to field such enquiries, expecting us to go to the trouble of copying stuff for no reward. These are tough times for all printed media and we are not running a charity. If you or someone can identify the copies of the magazine you are interested in, we can perhaps SELL you a copy (or photocopy) and then maybe let you have permission to reprint specific articles.

[Rob Thompson]

Any company needs to make money. That's the main purpose of a company. If they can help the game as well, this is a good thing, and should be encouraged, but is surely not the first aim of a business.

[John Wright]

If you have Fritz, go to the database and you can find all the teeside games from 1972.

[Mike Truran]

Ernie

The participants (+ scores) were:

Larsen 11
Ljubojevic 10
Portisch 9.5
Gligoric 9
Tringov 9
Andesson 8.5
Parma 8.5
Gheorghiu 8
Keene 7
Sax 7
Bilek 6.5
Hecht 6.5
Wade 6.5
Ree 6
Bellin 4
Cafferty 3

I'm not disclosing my sources.

Mike

[Michael Evans]

I think the players were:

Keene
Bellin
Wade
Cafferty

Gligoric
Portisch
Gheorghiu
Ljubojevich
Andersson
Sax
Parma
Ree
Tringov
Bilek
Hecht
Larsen

The above list is from decyphering the autographs that Bent Larsen (a true gentleman) obtained for me at the closing presentation/dinner in a copy of Bobby Fischer's 'My 60 Memorable Games' bought from the bookstall with my winnings from a little junior tournament that ran alongside the main event.

As an aside, given the amount of stick that Gerry Walsh has received on this forum, it is a reminder that in days gone by he organised events like this (and the annual simul after Hastings when players like Botvinnik and Stein came up to Teesside) which are now just a fond memory and unlikely ever to be repeated. Whatever his failings in recent years, I for one will always be grateful to him for the opportunity to see these players.

Note: I type too slowly! But I'll post this anyway, just to make Ernie jealous re the autographs!

[John Saunders]

You know its messages like the last one that makes me think whats the bloody point of doing anything to help our game. You can keep you mag because I wont be buying it.

Its not my Webb site its the associations, all I am trying to do is record for future generations all the good events we had in the area while my memory still remembers some of the facts if not all the details.

I'm sorry if my heavy-handed attempt at humour antagonised you. But I have to say that your invitation to the forum to copy some BCM content on your behalf did vex me not inconsiderably, followed up as it was by a terse comment to Angus French to 'study copyright law'. On that basis I think I can be forgiven for inferring the worst.

What the forum doesn't know is that, four days ago, you sent me an email asking me to look up (or, rather, suggest where you might look up) four different articles in back numbers of BCM. In the email (and indeed your forum request) you didn't give a specific idea of what you wanted the information for other than that you were collecting information for the Cleveland Chess Association website. Nothing wrong with that as far as it goes but I would have liked a clear and precise indication of what you wanted to do with the data.

Apologies for not having replied to that. I would have, in time. But, given that you are not a subscriber to BCM, I'm afraid that you should not expect such a request to be given a high priority. I help where I can, but my response time to such requests can vary from one minute to one month (although the magic words "I am a subscriber" can expedite things considerably). My responsibility is primarily to the company and paying subscribers, not to the general public or to the chess world in general. I'm not presiding over a public archive to which anyone should expect free, unfettered and instant access. One of BCM's problems is that it has been around so long that people take it for granted. This is a great mistake.

I wouldn't want people to think that such enquiries are unwelcome - that is not the case. I have responded to hundreds of them over the past decade and also provided lots of free content via the web and elsewhere. But please do state clearly what you want to use information for as we do have to defend our intellectual property in these difficult times. And, bearing the latter in mind, when making a request, ask not what BCM can do for you but what you can do for BCM.

[David Pardoe]

I guess that `Chess`, the old Ritson Morray classic, might well be another source of info....
Yes, I like that thing about the GMs from Hastings doing a `Simultaineous Tour`....surely that could be revived....?

Good Luck

[John Saunders]

No lingering hard feelings on my part.

Nor mine...

[Jonathan Bryant]

The original query has now been solved but for future reference:

I'm not presiding over a public archive to which anyone should expect free, unfettered and instant access

there is just such an archive at the National Chess Library in Hastings.

The Hastings Library has bound editions of the BCM going back to the 19th century. Anybody who wants to research the BCM - or Chess magazine or all sorts of other stuff - is well advised to make a visit.

Hastings is not equally accessible to all - although it's certainly worth a visit from London which is the journey I make - but you might be able to get somebody to have a nose around on your behalf.

Since I'm not an infrequent visitor to Hastings at the moment I'm happy to hear from people who'd like help an archive search. Can't promise I'd be able to assist but if I'm there anyway I may be able to do the biz.


btw: i do think it's quite reasonable for John to point out the BCM is, at the end of the day, a business - especially when free archives do exist elsewhere.

[Paul McKeown]

there is just such an archive at the National Chess Library in Hastings.

The Hastings Library has bound editions of the BCM going back to the 19th century. Anybody who wants to research the BCM - or Chess magazine or all sorts of other stuff - is well advised to make a visit.

Hastings is not equally accessible to all - although it's certainly worth a visit from London which is the journey I make - but you might be able to get somebody to have a nose around on your behalf.

You could also try the British Library at Euston, although they will insist on bona fides about a week before your first visit - then they will probably have to cart your requests down from Boston Spa, requiring a couple of days notice. They will also rigorously enforce copyright (even enforcing it on copyleft material, too, which is rather comic). Sadly, it really hasn't managed to keep copies of all material published in Britain (particularly pertaining to chess), as it is required to under law. Although the process is sometimes tedious, it is still the British nation's greatest treasure, imho.

Failing that, the Koninklijke Bibliotheek at the Hague is one of the three public libraries in the world with extensive collections of work related to chess (over 1 million items). As 's Gravenhage is only a hop, skip and a jump over the North Sea, British researchers may well find it the best nearby resource. Again bona fides required - enquire beforehand.

Regards,
Paul McKeown

[Paul McKeown]

I'm not presiding over a public archive to which anyone should expect free, unfettered and instant access

John Saunder's has a perfect right to insist on the BCM's property rights over its published material. He also a perfect right to place the needs of subscribers before non-subscribers. I can't understand why anyone would object to this - and I thought he did it with a certain stylish lick of humour too.

So why is everyone so hot under the collar?

I'm sure that John will not hinder genuine researchers in chess access BCM's material. All he's asking for is correct attribution. And if you want him to go and look stuff up for you, why shouldn't he ask for a contribution for his time? And if you want to publish large excerpts not covered by fair use, why shouldn't he demand fair payment, too?

I would remind everyone that people are forever quoting from BCM on this forum - and John has never raised an objection.

I really don't understand the fuss.

Regards,
Paul McKeown.

[Jonathan Bryant]

You could also try the British Library at Euston, although they will insist on bona fides about a week before your first visit - then they will probably have to cart your requests down from Boston Spa, requiring a couple of days notice.

Yes the British Library is a very pleasant place to hang out - and fortunately for us the situation re: chess is even better than you say. There is much material relating to our favourite game that is available on site with next to no notice. The vast majority of books I've wanted tolook at come into this category in fact. Normally I order stuff via the internet and it's waiting for me by the time I get to the reading room. Also, it doesn't take a week to get a reader's (s'?) card anymore. I got mine in about ten minutes. Perhaps I was lucky or have exceptional bona fides!

In the context of the present thread, I'm not sure the British Library holds stocks of the British Chess Magazine (or Chess Monthly). I'd be very happy to be corrected on this point though - perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong place.



btw: That the British Library has not kept up with every book published as is required by law is a valid and important point. As my fellow blogger EJH has written, however, this is not necessarily always their fault.

[Paul McKeown]

In the context of the present thread, I'm not sure the British Library holds stocks of the British Chess Magazine (or Chess Monthly). I'd be very happy to be corrected on this point though - perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong place.

Querying "British Chess Magazine" in the BL's integrated catalogue quickly returned this, on the second page of results:

British Chess Magazine, ed. J Watkinson, vol. 4, 1888

I understand the BL has most early BCM's - that's what I've been told anyway. Couldn't be bothered trawling too far through the index - but my experience is that the index cannot be relied on completely as so much material was lost in the past and there has never been a comprehensive effort at cataloguing. Best is to ask and if it's missing you'll hear within a couple of days.

Go and ask - I would be interested to hear your experience.

I understand that their collection of BH Wood's "Chess" is not good - volume 1 and 2 or something like that.

fortunately for us the situation re: chess is even better than you say. There is much material relating to our favourite game that is available on site with next to no notice. The vast majority of books I've wanted to look at come into this category in fact. Normally I order stuff via the internet and it's waiting for me by the time I get to the reading room.

My experience doesn't match your's - I've usually had to wait for what they have to be delivered from Boston Spa and I would say that less than half of what I have wanted has been archived with the BL. I'm happy for you that your experience has been more positive.

I would say that the range of material on chess at the BL "books" part is pretty poor compared to what one can dig up at the BL "newspaper" section at Colindale, which is excellent in that it really does have a comprehensive collection of newspapers from Britain and Empire (when "Empire" was part of "Britain"). You'ld be astonished at what can you find there. What is missing there, though, is an equally comprehensive collection of foreign newspapers. I would have thought that Her Majesty could spend a piffling amount (say 100 - 250 million) for a comprehensive collection of foreign newspapers on fiche too. Cheap at the price I would have said, particularly given some of the strange things that HMG does spend our money on. Sadly working practises at Colindale verge on the "Spanish", when actually trying to access that wonderful collection...

Regards,
Paul McKeown

[Jonathan Bryant]

Sadly working practises at Colindale verge on the "Spanish", when actually trying to access that wonderful collection...

Regards,
Paul McKeown

You have to put a bishop on b5 before they let you in?