I wouldn't really rate that as a blunder by you, your attack looked completely overwhelming and the defensive resource is such an amazing brilliancy that I doubt that even most GMs would consider it.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:39 pm
My last move was 24. Na3-b5. With mates in one threats and a Philidor mate in there as well.
Black resigned. (OOPS! though I did not see the missed resource either.)
Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Quick couple of questions about Geoff's game.Joey Stewart wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 12:21 amI wouldn't really rate that as a blunder by you, your attack looked completely overwhelming and the defensive resource is such an amazing brilliancy that I doubt that even most GMs would consider it.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:39 pm
My last move was 24. Na3-b5. With mates in one threats and a Philidor mate in there as well.
Black resigned. (OOPS! though I did not see the missed resource either.)
The defensive resource doesn't seem like an amazing brilliancy to me (disagreeing with Joey here), merely a standard desperado (because the White queen is en prise, any reasonably strong player would look for a desperado, and GMs should see it instantly). I presume the resource is:Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:39 pmAlso in 'Blunders and Brilliancies' (No 213) G. Chandler - R. Austin, Edinburgh 1980.
My last move was 24. Na3-b5. With mates in one threats and a Philidor mate in there as well.
Black resigned. (OOPS! though I did not see the missed resource either.)
24.Nb5 Qxg2+ 25.Kxg2 Bxc6+ 26.Qf3 Bxf3+ 27.Kxf3
At this point, Black is a pawn up, but will lose at least one pawn due to White's continuing threats (e.g. winning the e6 pawn from the fork on f7, and the threat against the h7 pawn. The pawn alignment is terribly unbalanced, and I would not like to say who is better at this point, or what the best continuation is for Black.
So that is my first question:
(1) Who is better (if anyone) and what is the best continuation?
(2) My second question is what should Geoff have played instead of 24.Nb5, or is that the 'best' move? I am not sure, but is 24.Nxe7 a simple win, or is the knight on e7 trapped and will be rounded up in a few moves? (EDIT: After 24.Nxe7 the simplest for Black appears to exchange queens via 24...gxf4 25.Nxd5 exd5 and reach a material-level position with BvN, but one where the bishop looks 'bad' to me, so that appears to be the best way for Geoff to have gained a slight advantage instead of 24.Nb5, or am I missing something?)
(3) And what we really want to know, Geoff, is how you ended up in a position with both your knight and queen en prise, and why Black did not recapture the knight on c6 when it landed there (presumably with check, taking something)? And how did the pawns end up on h4 and g5?? Was Black recapturing on g5 instead of capturing the knight on c6? Questions, questions!
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Tue May 03, 2022 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Hi Joey,
I suppose It's not a blunder till your opponent plays the refutation. Both of us missed it.
The Philidor Legacy is an instant pattern. We can usually spot the mate in 4 or 5 within a second.
Maybe that is the problem, our brain spots it too quickly and we jump straight in.
I've seen a few of them messed up. This one is just the bones of one I was sent a while ago. White to play.
It does appear that after The Queen check and Nc7+ and Na6+ then Qb8+and Rxb8 or Nxb8 will meet Nc7 mate.
But the Queen on c2 hold c7. White played out the 'mate' and resigned.
Hi John,
Ian contacted me as well for the full score my game v Austin (I've sent it.). I suppose now we wait.
Ian Mullen or Moe Green (from Canada) got it from somewhere. I'll still check out CHESS in detail tonight.
I suppose It's not a blunder till your opponent plays the refutation. Both of us missed it.
The Philidor Legacy is an instant pattern. We can usually spot the mate in 4 or 5 within a second.
Maybe that is the problem, our brain spots it too quickly and we jump straight in.
I've seen a few of them messed up. This one is just the bones of one I was sent a while ago. White to play.
It does appear that after The Queen check and Nc7+ and Na6+ then Qb8+and Rxb8 or Nxb8 will meet Nc7 mate.
But the Queen on c2 hold c7. White played out the 'mate' and resigned.
Hi John,
Ian contacted me as well for the full score my game v Austin (I've sent it.). I suppose now we wait.
Ian Mullen or Moe Green (from Canada) got it from somewhere. I'll still check out CHESS in detail tonight.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
I'm guessing the white knight was on e5 and the black king on b8 and play wentChristopher Kreuzer wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 10:31 amQuick couple of questions about Geoff's game.Joey Stewart wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 12:21 amI wouldn't really rate that as a blunder by you, your attack looked completely overwhelming and the defensive resource is such an amazing brilliancy that I doubt that even most GMs would consider it.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:39 pm
My last move was 24. Na3-b5. With mates in one threats and a Philidor mate in there as well.
Black resigned. (OOPS! though I did not see the missed resource either.)
...Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 1:39 pmAlso in 'Blunders and Brilliancies' (No 213) G. Chandler - R. Austin, Edinburgh 1980.
My last move was 24. Na3-b5. With mates in one threats and a Philidor mate in there as well.
Black resigned. (OOPS! though I did not see the missed resource either.)
(3) And what we really want to know, Geoff, is how you ended up in a position with both your knight and queen en prise, and why Black did not recapture the knight on c6 when it landed there (presumably with check, taking something)? And how did the pawns end up on h4 and g5?? Was Black recapturing on g5 instead of capturing the knight on c6? Questions, questions!
Ne5-c6 double check Kb8-a8 Na3-b5
I would probably have played that as well and waited for my opponent to resign.
Edit - just to be clear, I doubt I would have seen the refutation. I would have played the combination thinking I was winning. Like a lot of players, I suspect.
Last edited by NigelDonovan on Tue May 03, 2022 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
HI Nigel,
Here is the full game.
ME and Rudolf Austin had some wonderful games together. I do not want to take over thread but to even things up.
Austin - Chandler, Edinburgh Club Championship 1980 (Black to play)
I thought I'd be clever and I played 30...Rxg2 allowing 31. Qxf8+ as I then have 31...Rg8+ (OOPS! White did not paly 31.Qxf8+ )
Back on topic. I have skimmed through a few puzzle books and 'Chess Mind' something was niggling me about that
book and the thread position. No joy. I'm banking on the eagle eye of B.H.Wood picking up the game in 1948.
Here is the full game.
ME and Rudolf Austin had some wonderful games together. I do not want to take over thread but to even things up.
Austin - Chandler, Edinburgh Club Championship 1980 (Black to play)
I thought I'd be clever and I played 30...Rxg2 allowing 31. Qxf8+ as I then have 31...Rg8+ (OOPS! White did not paly 31.Qxf8+ )
Back on topic. I have skimmed through a few puzzle books and 'Chess Mind' something was niggling me about that
book and the thread position. No joy. I'm banking on the eagle eye of B.H.Wood picking up the game in 1948.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
White quite possibly played Qh6 hoping for .....Rg8? Qf6+ and perpetual, and only saw the other possibility later.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
I do not know Matt, but I think you are right. Look at the game,Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 3:23 pmWhite quite possibly played Qh6 hoping for .....Rg8? Qf6+ and perpetual, and only saw the other possibility later.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1765085
He was shedding material and I was gobbling it up.
Rudolf was a late to resign often playing on till one move from mate (as in the first game).
So I thought he was just doing his normal thing. I got caught good and proper.
(to make things worse it was 2nd time he had pulled a stalemate on me - the first was a few years previous.)
Back on topic. I have sent two games to Ian that I was sure he never had...he did!
New Quest, find a genuine and rare OTB game where resigns was a blunder.
(two quests tonight, go through old chess mags and see if I can take at least one game off Freddy Gordon at blitz.)
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Found nothing last night, although it's always a pleasure to go through these old CHESS's and BCM's.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Help is coming in from all quarters and sightings of the position are on the increase.
David Norwood uses the position in a Telegraph article 15 Jan 2005 when he reviews this book (which of course also has it.)
Edit: I noticed that Leonard has used it and so have I https://www.redhotpawn.com/chess-blog/t ... really.518
That joke I use to kick off my piece is from the Chess Review, August 1948 which tells you where else I have been sniffing about.
David Norwood uses the position in a Telegraph article 15 Jan 2005 when he reviews this book (which of course also has it.)
Edit: I noticed that Leonard has used it and so have I https://www.redhotpawn.com/chess-blog/t ... really.518
That joke I use to kick off my piece is from the Chess Review, August 1948 which tells you where else I have been sniffing about.
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Re: Béla Sándor - Zoltan Herendi, Budapest, 1948
Quick Update,
Ian has been in touch. 'The Little Book of Chess Blindness' is a 1959 Hungarian translation.
Good. We can forget about 'Brillo's and Blunders' as we have an earlier source.
Quest No. 177 is proving a tough nut. I'm now off to check out all the Pal Benko (The Hungarian Connection) columns in the American mags.
Ian has been in touch. 'The Little Book of Chess Blindness' is a 1959 Hungarian translation.
Good. We can forget about 'Brillo's and Blunders' as we have an earlier source.
Quest No. 177 is proving a tough nut. I'm now off to check out all the Pal Benko (The Hungarian Connection) columns in the American mags.