Rook Vs Rook + Knight

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Joey Stewart
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Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Joey Stewart » Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:46 pm

I always heard this ending dismissed as not being worth bothering with learning as it is a trivial draw, but in recent weeks I have had to defend it a few times in blitz and lost every one so obviously it's nowhere near as straightforward a draw as people like to make out.

I get that you should try and keep your king from being pushed to the edge of the board but beyond that is there any particular method to holding the defence once you do get forced there (i.e. are you needing to have your rook controlling the ranks or the files).
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:14 pm

Draw. But you have to be careful: I recall Karpov winning one of these endings against a careless opponent.

Nothing like as difficult as with a bishop. Which only goes to enforce the general rule, that knights are weaker than bishops.

Which gets me thinking about the Ramirez comment about Q & N v Q&B. Well, he knows more about chess than me, but I also recall another Karpov ending which he won, where the only difference was the N v B.

To be clear: this second Karpov ending went against the general rule (because of the queens).
Last edited by Nick Ivell on Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:14 pm

It's very hard for the R+N to make progress if you pin the knight.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:19 pm

I have drawn the weaker side of this, in Prague some years ago. As I recall it was quite a favourable starting position (as it were) and my king never even had to go to the edge of the board.
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Nick Ivell
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:21 pm

The Karpov win - I wish I could be more precise - was from a favourable starting position.

But in general, the draw should not be difficult.

Roland Kensdale
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Roland Kensdale » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:29 pm

Like Joey I thought this was a routine draw. Some old books suggest this (I remembered 'just keep the knight pinned and stay away from the edge').

The only time I played the weaker side I lost, but I still didn't appreciate the subtleties. Chessbase India did a video which gives an idea of the complications ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsq4BNH0P2E&t=454s ) but there might be clearer explanations elsewhere. Think this one shows Judit Polgar's loss to Kasparov and Karjakin losing (in time pressure).

Keep meaning to work through this properly and an endgame text, but I keep finding something else to do that is more important ...

Nick Burrows
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:32 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:21 pm

The Karpov win - I wish I could be more precise - was from a favourable starting position.
This one?


Nick Ivell
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:33 pm

The draw is not quite so routine. As Tartakower said, the blunders are all there, just waiting to be made.

A routine draw is something like K & R v K & R, where you have to make a massive blunder to lose (fall into a skewer or mate).

Roland Kensdale
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Roland Kensdale » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:35 pm

Off subject but the time stamp is an hour ahead for these posts.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:42 pm

That's the one! Magnus avant la lettre. Black must have felt he was never going to lose this.

It is however noteworthy that the king and knight started a long way apart; never a good look.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:47 pm

Though the above ending is R v N - the OP was actually referring to RN v R.

I definitely recall Gazza winning *that* one against Judit Polgar once?

(indeed, that one has been referred to above)
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:52 pm


Nick Ivell
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:56 pm

Sorry, I definitely recall a Karpov win that was RN v R. R v N is a different kettle of fish, and harder for the defender.

I remember doing some work with the late Danny Kopec on R v N, for the purposes of his postgrad AI studies.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:12 pm

Comfortably drawn here
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 pm

you simply put the rook the other end of the board from the king and keep checking the opponents king with it i think avoiding the corners with your king