out of the blue in an english line i invented

[AlanLlewellyn]

8...e5 may technically be the novelty some one suggested but not in livebook on chessbase.

[Ian Thompson]

I think this is because we really think of opening theory as depending on the players involved being of a certain standard.

That reminds me of a member of this forum complaining, some years ago, that a strong player had claimed a move as a novelty when he'd played it before, and, if I remember correctly, the strong player was present at the event at which our member played the move.

The strong player's response was something to the effect that he wasn't aware the move had been played previously by our member because he didn't waste his time looking at the games of 2300 rated players.

[IM Jack Rudd]

Pretty much any strong player would see 9.Nxe5; tactics like that are the first things you look at in those sorts of positions. The tricky thing is getting the calculations right.

[David Sedgwick]

Does that stand up though? If a move had, for instance, been played in a grandmaster tournament in the 1980s, hailed as a novelty, changed the course of theory etc etc etc, and then many years later it turned out to have been played in a club game in Adelaide in 1967, would that retrospectively lose its status as a novelty? I am not sure it would, and I think this is because we really think of opening theory as depending on the players involved being of a certain standard. (I also don't think there are clear lines here that we can draw.)

I have personal experience of this.

Many years ago now - I forget exactly when - Nigel Short played 6.a3 against the Najdorf Sicilian, and won. Malcolm Pein proclaimed this as a TN in his Daily Telegraph column.

I had played 6.a3 even longer ago - in 1971, I think - against Alan Hanreck of Kent. Alan found a better line than Nigel's opponent did subsequently, and the game was drawn.

I sent the score of Sedgwick v Hanreck to Malcolm. That didn't do either me or Alan any good. The TN remained attributed to Nigel.

(Edit: The above was written before I saw Ian Thompson's post. For clarity, there is no connection between the two episodes.)

[AlanLlewellyn]

I think this is because we really think of opening theory as depending on the players involved being of a certain standard.

That reminds me of a member of this forum complaining, some years ago, that a strong player had claimed a move as a novelty when he'd played it before, and, if I remember correctly, the strong player was present at the event at which our member played the move.

The strong player's response was something to the effect that he wasn't aware the move had been played previously by our member because he didn't waste his time looking at the games of 2300 rated players.

well i am a strong player myself...a strong 1492, so maybe he would do a gotham chess and look for a laugh.

[JustinHorton]

I mean I'm thinking that if there's a TN played at the next Candidates tournament and it later transpires that it was played in a blitz game on Chess.com in 2018* between Justinpatzer and bulgingbrain2003, I fully intend to take the credit, I fully expect everybody to ignore me and I think everybody will be right.


[* for the record no such game actually exists]

[AlanLlewellyn]

Gotham chess:"now he takes back the rook...Nooooooooooooooooo why why didnt you just take back!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[David Sedgwick]

... I fully intend to take the credit, I fully expect everybody to ignore me and I think everybody will be right.

But you won't even be able to claim the TN of doing that. I've got there first.

[AlanLlewellyn]

Pretty much any strong player would see 9.Nxe5; tactics like that are the first things you look at in those sorts of positions. The tricky thing is getting the calculations right.

is that why the position has been got to 12 times about before in livebook and this move isnt even mentioned, but surely they would also see after 0-0 0-0 9 Nxe5 is a ? (A mistake) and dismiss it. I bet you believe in fairies too Jack.

[AlanLlewellyn]

the key is take the 0-0 and 0-0 out and see if the move has been played before, then it is an even game and worthy of TN

[AlanLlewellyn]

[Event "4NCL Leamington Spa "] [Site "Leamington Spa"] [Date "2021.07.10"] [Round "2"] [White "Cheeseman, Frank"] [Black "Llewellyn, Alan Mansel"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "B07"] [WhiteElo "1487"] [BlackElo "1623"] [Annotator "Llewellyn,Alan"] [PlyCount "78"] [EventDate "2021.07.09"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "5"] 1. e4 d6 2. Bc4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d3 Be7 5. Bg5 Nxe4 $1 6. Bxe7 Nxc3 7. Bxd8 Nxd1 8. Bxc7 Nxb2 9. Bb3 a5 10. Bxb8 $2 $15 (10. a4 b5 11. axb5 a4 12. Ba2 Bb7 $14 (12... Bd7 $4 13. Bxd6 $18)) 10... Rxb8 11. Rb1 a4 12. Rxb2 axb3 13. Rxb3 (13. axb3 $2 $15 Ra8 $5) 13... Bd7 14. Ne2 Ke7 15. O-O Ba4 16. Rb2 d5 17. Rc1 e5 18. Nc3 Bc6 19. f3 Ra8 20. Ra1 Ra5 $3 21. a3 Rha8 22. Rba2 $2 $17 d4 23. Ne4 $2 $19 (23. Nb1 b5 24. Rb2 Ra4 25. c3 dxc3 26. Nxc3 Rxa3 27. Rc1 Ra1 28. Rxa1 Rxa1+ 29. Kf2 Ra3 30. Nxb5 Rxd3 $17) 23... Bd5 $2 $17 24. Rb2 Rxa3 25. Rxa3 Rxa3 26. Kf2 (26. Rb5 Ke6 27. Nc5+ Kd6 28. Nxb7+ Bxb7 29. Rxb7 Ke6 $15) 26... Ra2 $3 27. Rxa2 Bxa2 28. c3 $4 f5 29. c4 fxe4 30. fxe4 Kd6 31. Ke2 Kc5 32. Kd2 b5 33. cxb5 Kxb5 34. Kc2 Kb4 35. Kb2 Bb1 $3 36. Kxb1 Kc3 37. g4 Kxd3 38. h4 Kxe4 39. g5 g6 0-1
a similar idea in another line

[AlanLlewellyn]

the frank cheeseman game must be one of the best games of chess ever played

[Roger de Coverly]

Are we talking about this position ?

[SetUp "1"] [FEN "r2qk2r/ppp2pbp/2np1np1/4p3/2P1PPb1/2NP1N2/PP2B1PP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - 4 8"]

that could arise after

1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 d6 4. d3 Nc6 5. f4 g6 6. Nf3 Bg7 7. Be2 Bg4

Other move orders possible

Database research shows that the version with both sides castling had been reached by Tartakower as White against Gligoric in 1949. A handful of other players have also tried this hybrid of an English and Kings Gambit Declined.

Engine research indicates that 8. Nxe5 is a mistake as Black simply takes on e5. The point is that after 8. .. dxe5 9. Bxg4 Nxg4 10. Qxg4, Black has 10. .. Qxd3 and the White King is stuck in the centre.

[AlanLlewellyn]

[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "33"] 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 d6 4. f4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 (5... e6 6. d3 Be7) 6. Be2 e5 7. Nxe5 dxe5 8. Bxg4 Nxg4 9. Qxg4 Qd4 10. Qe2 exf4 11. Nd5 O-O-O 12. d3 g5 13. h4 Ne5 14. hxg5 Nxd3+ 15. Kf1 h6 16. Rh3 Nxc1 17. Rxc1 $11 *
A line where they havent castled or white hasnt played d3 which is equal

[AlanLlewellyn]

d3 is a move best delayed for this reason