Transgender chess players

[MJMcCready]

Well the bottom line is that that if FIDE allows transgender people to compete in women's sections and from that they can share the same bathroom, there are hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of men around the world, that will claim to be a woman so that they can spy on them in the toilets, accost them there and get up to all sorts of things. It's inevitable that it will start to happen at chess tournaments if males are informed that transgenders can compete in the women's section.

[Djuna Tree]

Non-players are already allowed at match venues. Men can already walk into a women's bathroom without being subject to security checks. What we have seen is that men who want to assault women at chess tournaments already do so without needing to do it in the women's bathroom.

[NickFaulks]

Suppose you were your country's top U18 girl and anticipate a place in next year's Olympiad team. Instead, that place goes to someone who is currently the #7 U18 boy and has quite legitimately transitioned

This comment is pretty telling. A transgender girl is not a "boy".

No, I was careful to get that right. They are currently the #7 boy but will next year have transitioned.

[LawrenceCooper]

Well the bottom line is that that if FIDE allows transgender people to compete in women's sections and from that they can share the same bathroom, there are hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of men around the world, that will claim to be a woman so that they can spy on them in the toilets, accost them there and get up to all sorts of things. It's inevitable that it will start to happen at chess tournaments if males are informed that transgenders can compete in the women's section.

Why hasn't that been happening in the last ten years (or perhaps much longer) then?

[Richard Bates]

Well the bottom line is that that if FIDE allows transgender people to compete in women's sections and from that they can share the same bathroom, there are hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of men around the world, that will claim to be a woman so that they can spy on them in the toilets, accost them there and get up to all sorts of things. It's inevitable that it will start to happen at chess tournaments if males are informed that transgenders can compete in the women's section.

Why hasn't that been happening in the last ten years (or perhaps much longer) then?

One might also incidentally point out that transgender women have the right to use female bathrooms under UK law. Banning them from female only tournaments would have no impact on that. I wonder if bans from female only tournaments might even be illegal in the UK...

[Matt Mackenzie]

Are there any actual prominent transgender players?

[Kevin Thurlow]

@ Nick - I say chess is not a sport. Caitlyn has probably never thought about it!

[MJMcCready]

Well the bottom line is that that if FIDE allows transgender people to compete in women's sections and from that they can share the same bathroom, there are hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of men around the world, that will claim to be a woman so that they can spy on them in the toilets, accost them there and get up to all sorts of things. It's inevitable that it will start to happen at chess tournaments if males are informed that transgenders can compete in the women's section.

Why hasn't that been happening in the last ten years (or perhaps much longer) then?

One might also incidentally point out that transgender women have the right to use female bathrooms under UK law. Banning them from female only tournaments would have no impact on that. I wonder if bans from female only tournaments might even be illegal in the UK...

There isn't anywhere near enough women playing chess as it is. If transgenders start appearing in their section its only going to put them off and make it harder to attract new players. Hopefully its not illegal.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

Are there any actual prominent transgender players?

I only know of two players, neither of whom is particularly prominent.

One is Angela Alston (previously Tony Alston) who was Texas women's champion from 2000 to 2005 inclusive (https://texaschess.org/about/champions/ ... champions/). I think she has a chapter in Jennifer Shahade's book Chess Bitch. Anglea played regularly on the online chess site Red Hot Pawn when I did too. She used to contribute to the chess-related forums as well. Her rating was around 1900, and Red Hot Pawn ratings corresponded fairly closely to FIDE ratings for players who had both. I've just checked and she is now rated 2376 on that site and the #10 player. I have to say I find this improvement in results a bit difficult to believe, especially as she must be in her late 60s now.

The other person is from the UK and transitioned from female to male. They're much younger than Angela. This person doesn't seem to play rated chess any more, though he had some good success in boys' tournaments (not opens!) after transitioning. To be honest I'm not sure if they did actually transition, they might have just identified as a male.

[Richard Bates]

Why hasn't that been happening in the last ten years (or perhaps much longer) then?

One might also incidentally point out that transgender women have the right to use female bathrooms under UK law. Banning them from female only tournaments would have no impact on that. I wonder if bans from female only tournaments might even be illegal in the UK...

There isn't anywhere near enough women playing chess as it is. If transgenders start appearing in their section its only going to put them off and make it harder to attract new players. Hopefully its not illegal.

You are making arguments that make a lot of sense in physical sports where men have a proven physical advantage that can make pretty average/even mediocre male competitors highly competitive at elite levels of female competition. With the debates about whether those advantages persist despite various hormone suppression that they have to go through to even be theoretically eligible without breaching drug limits.

There is no proven such comparison in chess. Even you were making irrelevant arguments as much about “bathrooms” as competition. Now clearly if there were a bunch of strong male competitors who suddenly started showing an interest in going through highly significant life changing surgery (we’re not talking about “self-identification” I think here) for nefarious purposes (not very likely I think) for the slight additional opportunities that women arguably gain in chess then you might have a point. But really, what evidence is there for that at all? As Lawrence says, it hasn’t happened so far in all the time it has been possible.

Reasons for low participation in chess among women are much debated. There are many theories. I’m unconvinced that a small number will of genuine transgender women players competing as women (and I think there are some of reasonable standard) would move the dial much at all. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

[Ian Jamieson]

My main role was to insist that FIDE must have some published policy and that the policy should be technically workable. I advised only on the second part, because that is my field of expertise - in particular, I was for some years responsible for FIDE's women's titles, which I support strongly. I am not sure that the second part has been achieved.

As I posted on the review of FIDE ratings thread, I think FIDE’s women’s titles should be scrapped.

I accept that they probably were a good idea and have been beneficial but in my opinion their time has come and they should be scrapped.

Yes, there would be fewer titles which could be accepted towards norms but I don’t see any other reason to keep them.

Either women can play chess as well as men or they can’t.

If you accept they can play chess as well as men then there shouldn’t be separate titles

If you have separate titles you are saying women can’t play chess as well as men.

[Roger de Coverly]

I think FIDE’s women’s titles should be scrapped.

You might need a new Open title, "Expert Master" XM? . Perhaps that would be awarded somewhere in the 1900 to 2000 range.

Then by achieved rating you would have GM (2500+ with Norms), IM (2400+ with Norms to include WGM), FM (2300+_ to include WIM), CM (2200+ to include WFM) and XM (2000+ to include WCM) If they bothered to apply, tens of thousands of players would qualify for XM.

[Richard Bates]

The existence of women’s titles does not harm men in any way (in fact, they do the opposite - for the reason you give - more titles players). So the only purpose for getting rid of them IMO would be if there was an established consensus (led by women I might add) that their existence harms women and their chess development. I think such arguments are tenuous at best. And no woman is compelled to accept women’s titles or set them as the limit of their ambition. Maybe you might think that they create an image of inferiority which might inadvertently add to to problems of sexism. But again, I believe that is a case and argument that should be led by women if they desire.

[LawrenceCooper]

Why hasn't that been happening in the last ten years (or perhaps much longer) then?

One might also incidentally point out that transgender women have the right to use female bathrooms under UK law. Banning them from female only tournaments would have no impact on that. I wonder if bans from female only tournaments might even be illegal in the UK...

There isn't anywhere near enough women playing chess as it is. If transgenders start appearing in their section its only going to put them off and make it harder to attract new players. Hopefully its not illegal.

They already appear in their sections and I've yet to hear of anyone giving up because of it. I've heard of many reasons for girls/women to drop out of chess. Tackling sexual harassment of women by men for example needs far more urgent attention and I eagerly await some initiatives from FIDE on this.

[Ian Jamieson]

The existence of women’s titles does not harm men in any way (in fact, they do the opposite - for the reason you give - more titles players). So the only purpose for getting rid of them IMO would be if there was an established consensus (led by women I might add) that their existence harms women and their chess development. I think such arguments are tenuous at best. And no woman is compelled to accept women’s titles or set them as the limit of their ambition. Maybe you might think that they create an image of inferiority which might inadvertently add to to problems of sexism. But again, I believe that is a case and argument that should be led by women if they desire.

I agree entirely