Page 1 of 4
World Junior Championships 2023
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:18 am
by Nick Burrows
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:40 am
by LawrenceCooper
Shreyas won in round 1 against a 1630 and now faces an unrated in round 2.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:08 am
by Ian Thompson
LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:40 am
Shreyas won in round 1 against a 1630 and now faces an unrated in round 2.
Not particularly surprising when Mexico has been allowed to enter 60 players (40% of the field), most of whom are low-rated or unrated. Why?
This
ChessBase India article on the event makes interesting reading, not so much for the lengthy report on their attempts to get visas to travel to Mexico, but for the letter saying who was covering the costs of their participation.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:51 am
by Geoff Chandler
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:08 am
Not particularly surprising when Mexico has been allowed to enter 60 players (40% of the field), most of whom are low-rated or unrated. Why?
Hi Ian,
Mexico are the host Nation and if it does not disrupt things and can easily be maintained why not introduce them into tournament play. I'm sure more than a handful of these unrated kids will get the bug.
After Hans threw down his let's talk and teach challenge to Kramnik and Kramnik accepted I briefly considered Hans might pull out of this event to make it happen. But no, we will have to wait and see if this goes ahead.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:25 pm
by LawrenceCooper
Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:51 am
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:08 am
Not particularly surprising when Mexico has been allowed to enter 60 players (40% of the field), most of whom are low-rated or unrated. Why?
Hi Ian,
Mexico are the host Nation and if it does not disrupt things and can easily be maintained why not introduce them into tournament play.
It certainly makes title norms more difficult.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:47 pm
by NickFaulks
Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:51 am
Mexico are the host Nation and if it does not disrupt things and can easily be maintained why not introduce them into tournament play. I'm sure more than a handful of these unrated kids will get the bug.
I couldn't agree more, it is a wonderful opportunity. Yes, it does mean that the first round is a procession, but there are ten more to follow and I imagine those players who have travelled from around the world are content with a light start.
Shreyas' second round draw is a fluke, he is playing someone who won his first game because his opponent didn't make it there on time. In an eleven round event this will not affect his norm chances ( assuming he wins! ). A better guide to the strength of the event is that Hans Niemann is facing a 13 year old IM, probably not what he was hoping for in an early morning game.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:49 pm
by NickFaulks
LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:25 pm
It certainly makes title norms more difficult.
I don't think so, given that you have room to throw away an unhelpful win.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:29 pm
by Ian Jamieson
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:49 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:25 pm
It certainly makes title norms more difficult.
I don't think so, given that you have room to throw away an unhelpful win.
Yes, but not 2 or 3 unhelpful wins
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:27 am
by NickFaulks
Ian Jamieson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:29 pm
Yes, but not 2 or 3 unhelpful wins
Why not?
Re: World Junior Championships 2023
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:22 am
by Richard Bates
When an enormous proportion of the field have low ratings (for GM norm purposes sub 2200 which is c60%) it's simplistic to just say that it's all fine because you can just disregard a couple of games. Short of having a near perfect tournament (and that means winning games with white and black - even against pretty strong players), to get a long way ahead of "the pack" it is inevitable that a player will run into more of the low rated players later in the tournament. And that's even before you take account of the inevitability of running into one or two players who are really very strong but are hideously under-rated.
But to be honest - i wouldn't say that's the main issue. These days the World Junior Championship is probably about the worst place to set a target for norms (particularly GM norms) anyway. The more serious criticism IMO would be that it devalues the tournament - specifically it strongly increases the chances of somebody winning through pure "luck of the draw" by navigating their way to the top of the tournament whilst playing hardly any other the other leading contenders. The very thing that 11 round (or in the past 13 round!) tournaments are almost designed to avoid. Longer tournaments are rare these days because of the cost (and in some cases supposed inconvenience) that they cause. But it seems perverse to accept these disadvantages by running one, and then give away all the corresponding benefits that they bring. Of course the hosts probably aren't that bothered about that - but perhaps FIDE should be.
Re: World Junior Championships 2023
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:24 am
by NickFaulks
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:22 am
it is inevitable that a player will run into more of the low rated players later in the tournament.
I understand the point in general, but in the case of this tournament in particular I just don't think it is true. If you run into any of the unrated players late in the tournament, certainly if more than one, then you will not be on target for a 2600 performance.
Look at Andy Woodward. He has started with three wins against opponents rated 1859 ( uplifted to 2200 ), 2241 and 2667. He will see another weak opponent only if his tournament takes a sharp turn for the worse.
It is often overlooked that the uplift is a valuable benefit. For an aspirant GM, beating a 1600 player really is a formality, but it is treated as a win against a 2200 player, which is not.
specifically it strongly increases the chances of somebody winning through pure "luck of the draw" by navigating their way to the top of the tournament whilst playing hardly any other the other leading contenders.
For similar reasons, I don't see that either. After the first two rounds are out of the way, it's just a very strong 9 round tournament with almost no "tail". Contenders for the title are unlikely to face any weak opposition, certainly not more than once and not in the later rounds. We shall see - I am looking forward to a very good tournament.
Re: World Junior Championships 2023
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:48 am
by Geoff Chandler
Set out to play for a win in every game, and if you do well the norms will take of themselves. Do not let the norm be the overriding concern, if you are good enough one day to be an IM or GM it will happen.
I was reading the T & C's
https://doc.fide.com/docs/CALENDAR/2023 ... _2023.pdf
It appears the Mexican Chess Fed have invested quite a bit of money into their youngsters for this event. (approx £120.00 per player.)
4.1 FIDE Entry fee: All federations shall be required to pay FIDE Entry Fees for players directly
to FIDE as stipulated by the FIDE Financial Regulations. According to regulations FIDE fee is
EUR 70 for first player per each category from each federation and EUR 140 for each additional
player. Except the defending champion.
Re: World Junior Championships 2023
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:13 am
by Thomas Rendle
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:22 am
When an enormous proportion of the field have low ratings (for GM norm purposes sub 2200 which is c60%) it's simplistic to just say that it's all fine because you can just disregard a couple of games. Short of having a near perfect tournament (and that means winning games with white and black - even against pretty strong players), to get a long way ahead of "the pack" it is inevitable that a player will run into more of the low rated players later in the tournament. And that's even before you take account of the inevitability of running into one or two players who are really very strong but are hideously under-rated.
But to be honest - i wouldn't say that's the main issue. These days the World Junior Championship is probably about the worst place to set a target for norms (particularly GM norms) anyway. The more serious criticism IMO would be that it devalues the tournament - specifically it strongly increases the chances of somebody winning through pure "luck of the draw" by navigating their way to the top of the tournament whilst playing hardly any other the other leading contenders. The very thing that 11 round (or in the past 13 round!) tournaments are almost designed to avoid. Longer tournaments are rare these days because of the cost (and in some cases supposed inconvenience) that they cause. But it seems perverse to accept these disadvantages by running one, and then give away all the corresponding benefits that they bring. Of course the hosts probably aren't that bothered about that - but perhaps FIDE should be.
I agree with all of the above. Of course the host nation should get a few extra players in - maybe 10 or 12 of their best players would be fine. 60 is clearly excessive and devalues a World Championship.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:27 am
by Ian Jamieson
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:27 am
Ian Jamieson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:29 pm
Yes, but not 2 or 3 unhelpful wins
Why not?
Yes, I should have checked the number of rounds.
You could disregard 2 unhelpful wins.
You couldn’t however disregard 3 unhelpful wins because that would only leave you with 8 games.
Re: World Junior Championships
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:31 am
by Mick Norris
LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:40 am
Shreyas won in round 1 against a 1630 and now faces an unrated in round 2.
Who didn't turn up it appears
Results