English Chess Forum

In the North Essex Chess League we recently saw a match in league division 3 between Colchester D and Brentwood C teams.
The average ratings of the two teams were 1346 and 1742.
Perhaps unsurprisingly the result was 0:4
see https://necl.org.uk/

This is just an example.

Do league officials in other leagues have any suggestions as to how to organise the number of divisions/teams/rules to ensure that matches are competative? This is on the assumption that more-even matches are more fun!

David York wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:27 pm

Do league officials in other leagues have any suggestions as to how to organise the number of divisions/teams/rules to ensure that matches are competative? This is on the assumption that more-even matches are more fun!

Being relaxed about automatic promotion and relegation is an approach, as is putting rating restrictions on lower divisions.

Alternatively get players sufficiently trained or experienced that they play to at least a 1200 standard. Or, if you have the players, set up a beginners division restricted to players below 1200 or whatever.

I suppose it depends if the highest rated team were far too good for their division or the lower rated team were just the natural bottom of the league - if it's the latter there's not a whole lot you can do (can't really demand the other sides "get worse" to help them) but if it's the former then you have to question why a clearly stronger team are in the division and not in the one above.

Hasn't this always been a part of league chess, and not really considered a problem (unless it happens all the time, which is seldom the case)?

Back during my 1980s chess youth in both the Lancaster District and Northumberland leagues, whitewashes (by 7-0 and then 6-0 in the former) were far from uncommon - even if not the norm - and just accepted as "one of those things". And it was always nice when the massively outgraded side managed to pull off an upset or two, which happened surprisingly frequently.

Yeah when the massively outgraded underdogs are the outlier it's just an unfortunate consequence of rating disparity and can't really be helped but there's definitely times when it is obvious a strong team is actively avoiding promotion just to keep winning and that does need stamping on because it spreads a lot of dissent in leagues and can be more damaging to lose multiple other teams for the sake of turning a blind eye to cowards and cheats hiding where they don't belong.

The emotive language in this thread seems completely unnecessary. As to "you have to question why a clearly stronger team are in the division and not in the one above", a little thought suggests at least two possible answers. It may be a new club which is having to work its way up through a pyramid league structure. Alternatively it may be an existing team which has been strengthened by several recent new recruits. Nothing sinister there.

Nothing sinister if it happens occasionally but there's definitely been instances of it being deliberately orchestrated just because the players have too much ego and want to keep winning lower divisions - when I played in the Coventry League years ago there was a team called Coventry transport who were notorious for bending the rules to ensure they "won", even when they finally were forced to take a promotion after multiple seasons of winning division 2 they then put in a second division 3 team, withdrew the div 1 side under the feeble reasoning that their top players no wanted to play in the league and lo and behold those same players reappeared in division 3 a few weeks later...

That's why you need to keep on top of things!

You either have promotion and relegation (expected / enforced) or rating limits like Kent....

Kent County Chess Association
The Kent County Chess Association organises competitive chess for 17 clubs in metropolitan and wider Kent
County Cup – an open competition for teams of 6 in which there are no rating limits.
Lewis Cup – teams of 6 with an average rating limit per team of 2000. Min player rating 1600
Stevenson Cup – teams of 6 with an average rating limit of 1850. Min rating 1450 each player
En Passant Cup – teams of 6 with an average rating limit of 1750. Min rating 1350 each player
Harvey Cup – teams of 6 with an average rating limit of 1600. Min rating 1200 each player
Tom Fuller Cup – teams of 4 with an average rating limit of 1500. Min rating 1100 each player and no player to be rated above 1750
Intro Cup – teams of 4 with an average rating limit of 1400. Min rating 1000 each player and no player to be rated above 1600

Joey Stewart wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 18, 2024 12:48 pm

Nothing sinister if it happens occasionally but there's definitely been instances of it being deliberately orchestrated just because the players have too much ego and want to keep winning lower divisions - when I played in the Coventry League years ago there was a team called Coventry transport who were notorious for bending the rules to ensure they "won", even when they finally were forced to take a promotion after multiple seasons of winning division 2 they then put in a second division 3 team, withdrew the div 1 side under the feeble reasoning that their top players no wanted to play in the league and lo and behold those same players reappeared in division 3 a few weeks later...

That's why you need to keep on top of things!

In a situation like that, the league ought to have rules whereby some if not all players from the team in the higher division are barred from playing in the lower-ranked ones. That was certainly the case in the Civil Service League when I was playing in it in the 70s.

"In a situation like that, the league ought to have rules whereby some if not all players from the team in the higher division are barred from playing in the lower-ranked ones. That was certainly the case in the Civil Service League when I was playing in it in the 70s."

Yes.

I recall two teams leading division 2 suddenly "coincidentally" both losing horribly in the last match of the season, so the third-placed team accidentally overtook them and had a torrid season in Division 1 being faced with much stronger opposition...

Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:51 pm

and had a torrid season in Division 1 being faced with much stronger opposition...

But they had their name on the Div 2 trophy.

"But they had their name on the Div 2 trophy."

Yes - and they were pleased with that (as I would be).

Long, long ago in the Berkshire League Joe French (108) lost to Shaun Taulbut (232). Bless.
James

Thanks to everyone for the useful suggestions.

We run a handicap league. Strong players tend to play the Watkinsons (scratch) but avoid the Examiner (handicap), as often teams can have a huge starting disadvantage.