Original Lines against the Italian

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Post Reply
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 22693
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 24, 2025 12:35 pm

In today's column (Oct 24th 2025), Leonard draws our attention to a game from the US Championship.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... llegations
Barden in the Guardian wrote:In round seven, against his then co-leader Niemann, Caruana produced the game of the tournament, a sensational display of original strategy. After the sequence 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 d6 4 c3 f5!? 5 d3 Qf6! White should play 6 exf5! or 6 Ng5 keeping the position open and his forces mobile. After 6 0-0? f4! it is already strategically difficult as Black’s Qf6 is active.
That looks parallel to an idea that someone has done youtube videos on. This runs 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 f5. Now 4. exf5 allows 4. .. e4 and Black is somewhat better. Despite the advocacy of its presenter, both 4. d4 (reverse Vienna) and 4. d3 (reverse Kings Gambit declined) seem storng. The extra tempo does help with the tactics, particularly those based around Ng5 because of the Bishop already on c4.

If you look at the Caruana idea with colours reversed, say by starting 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nc3 d6 4. d3 Nf6 5. Qf3, you run into the problem that Black won't obligingly play 5. .. c6, but .. Nc6 instead.

I could suppose that Mestel's 1970s line in the Philidor of 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 is also related.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 6413
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Oct 24, 2025 6:06 pm

A lot of these lines can be transposed into by the Latvian Gambit, but hardly anyone seems to play that anymore.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Nick Ivell
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Nick Ivell » Fri Oct 24, 2025 7:13 pm

I always preferred Bc4 on move 2.

Tim Spanton
Posts: 1407
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Oct 24, 2025 7:42 pm

Nick Ivell wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 24, 2025 7:13 pm
I always preferred Bc4 on move 2.
That doesn't stop 2...f5!?

Nick Ivell
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Nick Ivell » Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:09 pm

Never faced it. You have to be brave not to worry about BxN.

Tim Spanton
Posts: 1407
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Tim Spanton » Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:31 pm

Presumably Black counts on the bishop-pair and queenside cadtling to give a game with counterchances

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 6413
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Oct 25, 2025 4:33 pm

Nick Ivell wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:09 pm
Never faced it. You have to be brave not to worry about BxN.
I don't think that is actually anything special for White, in a lot of these lines a quick d4 seems to be the way to go.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Tim Spanton
Posts: 1407
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Tim Spanton » Sat Oct 25, 2025 7:19 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 25, 2025 4:33 pm
Nick Ivell wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:09 pm
Never faced it. You have to be brave not to worry about BxN.
I don't think that is actually anything special for White, in a lot of these lines a quick d4 seems to be the way to go.
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5!? 3.d4 is a Reversed Falkbeer with White having the extra move Bc4.

NickFaulks
Posts: 9331
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Oct 25, 2025 10:03 pm

Nick Ivell wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:09 pm
You have to be brave not to worry about BxN.
Nah, a King's Gambit player dreams about lines like that.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

User avatar
Joey Stewart
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: All Of Them
Contact:

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Joey Stewart » Sun Oct 26, 2025 5:03 am

I sometimes listen to caruanas podcast on YouTube and he has mentioned a few times how with modern engines and processing power he's finding there is actually way more depth to openings then we ever realised, after years of authors telling us that lines are "unplayable" or bad for one colour it turns out on greater analysis that you have far more choices then we realised.

It's a really good one to listen to, he's not one of these childlike broadcasters just interested in appealing to the lowest common denominator but a really intelligent and insightful commentator who gives us a rarely seen view into the preparations and inner workings of chess at the highest level.
Any opinions expressed will not be held to account.

Nick Ivell
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Original Lines against the Italian

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Oct 26, 2025 7:47 am

I am not remotely saying I would have played BxN; just trying to explain why the possibility never arose, in more than 100 serious games.

I started playing 2. Bc4 on the back of Tim Harding's wonderful little book. Previously I had played the Spanish, but got fed up with all the theory.

In case anyone in wondering about my use of descriptive, well, I did move to algebraic in 1976; but I have always found descriptive better for captures!

Post Reply