Local Law Variants

[Jonathan Bryant]

... you could have warning, but only if that warning is stored by the results secretary of a league, and that warning carries over for the rest of the seaon, thereafter in any match he would be defaulted. In a tournament if the offending player phone goes off twice during the duration of the tournament, the second ring would be removal from the tournament.

The second may well be workable but do you really think the first is?

[Alex Holowczak]

The usual interpretation is that the physical scoresheet belongs to the organisers, annotations, if any, are the intellectual property of the player or author making the comments, but the moves themselves are just a reported historic fact and don't fall inside copyright.

Thanks. One notes that some sporting organisations claim copyright to any event held under their auspices. Formula 1, American Football and Soccer come to mind, typically any time when TV rights are involved.

Roger is right on the money, you can't copyright a game of chess. This is why charging to show a live game is stupid, there's nothing legally stopping someone else broadcasting the same series of moves elsewhere (even though FIDE did their best to do so at the Topalov-Kamsky match). By comparison, F1, football and gridiron are not intellectual property.

[Sean Hewitt]

Roger is right on the money, you can't copyright a game of chess. This is why charging to show a live game is stupid, there's nothing legally stopping someone else broadcasting the same series of moves elsewhere (even though FIDE did their best to do so at the Topalov-Kamsky match).

Surely it's stupid for an event to spend money (that could be better spent elsewhere) transmitting live games to an audience that believes that they have no value? (unless you have sponsors for whom the hit stats might sound impressive)

[Alex Holowczak]

Roger is right on the money, you can't copyright a game of chess. This is why charging to show a live game is stupid, there's nothing legally stopping someone else broadcasting the same series of moves elsewhere (even though FIDE did their best to do so at the Topalov-Kamsky match).

Surely it's stupid for an event to spend money (that could be better spent elsewhere) transmitting live games to an audience that believes that they have no value? (unless you have sponsors for whom the hit stats might sound impressive)

I'm saying that it's silly to charge, on the basis that someone else has the right to do the same for free. As long as it's publicised well enough, all your potential users can just watch the free one.

With Topalov-Kamsky, there was something appearing on one live feed that commented on certain sites being illegal copies of the match. They weren't anything of the sort. (In this case, FIDE weren't charging to view the games, but they did claim that others showing the moves were breaking copyright, which is nonsense.) For people who played the Pro Evolution football series before it had the FIFPro licence, there was nothing to stop them having the game, and all the teams and players, they just had to have weird names that didn't correspond to who actually was in the real-life team. (Of course, you could simply edit the player to change the name manually, if you wished.)

Personally, I don't see why you'd pay for live coverage of a game, when you can play through it later on when the PGNs are released - for free - anyway. If it's possible, I wouldn't be averse to the rest of the webpage being clogged up with adverts if it meant the games could be shown for free. I believe Google has some generic stuff you can add, but I've no idea how to do it.

[Eoin Devane]

Somewhat relevent to our discussion: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6171

110 participants at the European Individual Championships in Rijeka have signed a petition against the FIDE zero default time rule. So it's not only at local level that FIDE laws aren't popular!

[Kevin Thurlow]

"It's a trivial amount of effort for him to catch sight of the number printed next to the last move. He'd look at the number, anyway, to be sure that his initial glance wasn't out by one."

First sentence does not apply if you are running a large tournament. I tend to go have a quick look at scoresheets to predict (and take a note) where time-scrambles might occur. I want to have a quick look, not pause at every board. You only need to know exactly how many moves have been played when you have reached the time-scramble.

[Trefor Owens]

At my level - the fear of mobile phones is becoming ridiculous and is threatening to make playing chess – which I do for fun – more and more difficult.

My wife is disabled and I am her carer – although she is (* touches wood) in a period of remission and well at the moment, I always carry a mobile, just in case something happens.

In fact should I ever get a call during a game my first reaction would be to resign and drive straight home, so I don’t believe a call would seriously disadvantage my opponent. I am aware of at least one other member of my club who is in a similar position as a carer for a partner, and other club players who have to carry an active mobile phone at all times (Police Officers for example)

Now although I agree that mobile phones etc should not be used at the highest level, I think in local leagues, where the majority of players turn out, having done a day’s work to enjoy a game of chess, we are in serious danger of over-egging the cake.

I even found it mildly humorous, at a 4NCL weekend last year, when an arbiter made a long point about mobile phones/laptops etc but made no mention of the extensive bookstall right at the entrance of the playing hall, stocked with books.
So I assume that I could have made 3 moves then browsed the latest How to Thrash the Sicilian type of book!

Yours in chess
Trefor

[Alex Holowczak]

This seems a more democratic approach than trying to get ECF to impose rules from above.

My point is that the ECF wouldn't be imposing any rules from above, they'd be giving the leagues more freedom within the rules for the leagues and congresses to choose a variation they wish to play under.

For example, rule 8.9 of the Birmingham League rules allows descriptive notation, a rule that in theory, the Birmingham League has no right to have if it is to be graded by the ECF, since they're not playing using the Laws of Chess. It would probably count as a variation of chess, which wouldn't count towards the ECF grading system. By having a list of variants, these laws which already exist all over the country would become legal.

[Anthony Taglione]

Given that it's clear to anyone who has ever played chess that players are still playing chess, and not a variant, even if they don't record the game at all, rather than introducing bits of sticking plaster to patch up the rules, we should be simplifying them. Change 8.1 to allow the local arbiter or his higher authority, the league secretary, for example, to determine all permissible notation formats and modify the clause in Appendix C pertaining to notation to accept any acceptable notation.

[Alan Walton]

The second may well be workable but do you really think the first is?

Anthony, I agree that the first quote is more difficult to work

Though most large leagues have their own website, and they could have a name and shame list for those offenders whose phone goes off, so teams/captains are aware of these offenders prior to the matches,and at least this would be a mildly form of discourgment

Alan

[Roger de Coverly]

Somewhat relevent to our discussion: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6171

110 participants at the European Individual Championships in Rijeka have signed a petition against the FIDE zero default time rule. So it's not only at local level that FIDE laws aren't popular!

It appears the players are asking for the zero time default to be removed from the current event. The local organisers are sympathetic but say the rule is imposed on them from above by the European Chess Union.

http://www.eurorijeka2010.com/home/News ... &newsId=23

[Sean Hewitt]

Somewhat relevent to our discussion: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6171

110 participants at the European Individual Championships in Rijeka have signed a petition against the FIDE zero default time rule. So it's not only at local level that FIDE laws aren't popular!

That's odd, because FIDE don't have a zero default time. The default time is at the discretion of the organiser. All FIDE say is that, if no default time is specified then it's zero.

At e2e4 events (for example) the default time is 1 hour. Our games get rated and count for norms.

[Roger de Coverly]

That's odd, because FIDE don't have a zero default time.

FIDE will attempt to apply a zero default time for events that it regards itself as "owning". These include the World Cup, Olympiad and the European Championships.

The actual regulations for the current event at
http://www.eurorijeka2010.com/home/Cham ... egulations
do not specify a default time - but the current wording implies zero unless the organisers opt out.

[John Saunders]

That's odd, because FIDE don't have a zero default time. The default time is at the discretion of the organiser. All FIDE say is that, if no default time is specified then it's zero.

"All" FIDE say? It's a very significant "all", don't you think? And a very stupid one in most people's opinion, surely.

I really don't know why FIDE felt the need to specify rigid penalties in such cases. Previously, the law allowed an arbiter freedom to choose from a suggested list of suitable penalties for article 12 infractions. By departing from this standard (in the case of mobile phone rings and default times) and imposing rigid penalties, they have effectively infantilised players (i.e. turned us into naughty children who need to be severely punished for our bad behaviour) and also shown a degree of contempt for the good judgement of their own arbiters (whom they evidently do not trust to apply a sensible penalty for such infractions). The whole thing smacks of someone with an inflexibly authoritarian frame of mind which grates horribly with those of us trying to promote a leisure activity and entice more people into the game.

[Mike Truran]

No doubt state-sponsored assassinations for breaking the "law" will be the next step if our man's past form is anything to go by.