Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

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Paul Buswell
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Paul Buswell » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:39 am

Ernie Lazenby wrote:I know the subject of mobile phones has been discussed before but I would like to put another slant on this issue and seek views;

Article 12.3 of FIDE rules directs a game is lost if a phone produces a soud etc etc.

...........

If a county has a constitution that directs chess will be played in accordance with FIDE rules I cannot see how the organisation could not accept a players claim for a win in accordance wth article 12.3 AND

If a county did bring a rule directing players could not claim a loss in these circumstances is that not the slippery slope to chaos, what other rules should be ignored because they are considered too draconian at local league level. Some people in my area argue that local chess is really just a hobbyist/ friendly activity and should not be controlled too stricktly in accordance with the laws of the game as directed by FIDE.

I am not offering an opinion onw way or the other at the moment, I am opening up the issue for debate and look forward to reading what other counties do.

...........
Kent League has a rule that states that a mobile phone loss will not apply unless an announcement reminding players has been made at the start of the match.

PB

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:41 am

Funnily enough I'm currently writing a blog post on this very issue.
Ernie Lazenby wrote:The question is this; would it be right for an association to introduce a directive that said a player cannot claim a game simply because his opponents phone goes off during a game; and to introduce an ammendment to the FIDE laws directing that a specified amount of time be deduted frorm the offenders clock if this happens. (or indeed any other penalties)
I would say yes. London League rule is,

first ring/sound: warning
second ring/sound: loss of game


I don't like the FIDE rule but I'm a bit confused by this ...
Ernie Lazenby wrote:WE have a high profile player who said if his mobile phone goes off and his opponent claims a game he will stop playing across the board chess and play on the internet.
Isn't s/he in control of whether this happens? They can make sure their phone is turned off after all.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:43 am

Paul Buswell wrote: Kent League has a rule that states that a mobile phone loss will not apply unless an announcement reminding players has been made at the start of the match.
Reasonable ... although in my experience these reminders are being edited out of the consciousness of many (much like safety announcements on planes and health warnings on ciggie packets).

E.g. the phone that went off in a county match last week within minutes of at least three requests for players to ensure their phones are turned off.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Truran
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:48 am

This is what the rules of chess say (from the FIDE handbook):

12.3

1. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse on another chessboard
2. Without the permission of the arbiter a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue, unless they are completely switched off. If any such device produces a sound, the player shall lose the game. The opponent shall win. However, if the opponent cannot win the game by any series of legal moves, his score shall be a draw.
3. Smoking is permitted only in the section of the venue designated by the arbiter



On the assumption since there are no arbiters in local leagues the local league rules take their place, it should be within a local league's remit to give the requisite permission if it wants.

Richard Bates
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:08 pm

Ernie Lazenby wrote:
WE have a high profile player who said if his mobile phone goes off and his opponent claims a game he will stop playing across the board chess and play on the internet.
Rather bizarre IMO, for the reason stated by Jonathan. Now if it was a "high profile player" who said that if his opponent's phone goes off AND HE IS FORCED TO CLAIM A WIN...

Ian Thompson
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:21 pm

The Surrey Border League applies penalties similar to illegal moves:

"The use of mobile phones during the game is not permitted. Any mobile phones brought into the playing area must be switched off, before play commences. The emission of any sound by a mobile phone or any other electronic means of communication during the game shall be penalised. The penalty for the first two occurrences will be the award of two minutes of extra time to his opponent in each instance and on a third occurrence, the loss of the game. A Team Captain, however, may retain the use of a mobile phone for a limited period at the start of a match, for example until all his team have arrived, with the prior consent of the opposing Team Captain."

David Pardoe
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:28 pm

The Surrey board rules sound very sensible... I have long argued for such a change more widely.... But its hard to get such matters debated by AGMs...many just seem to pander to the authorities like sheep, and will not exercise any objective sense of `judgement`, in my view... so we are left shackled with some truely balmy chess rules...which are a drag on chess and its promotion. Having a set of rules which are OTT, really doesnt help anyone, nor encourage chess take-up.
Too often, committees will turn a blind eye to complaints and suggestions for change, in such cases..

Same goes for the rule about writing down moves..... unless clear skullduggery is suspected.
And the equally daft rule regarding chess notation..... again, providing players are using a recognised notation, this should be fine in my view..... a classic case of legislators inventing rules, justy for the sake of it. Lets have a more objective and critical attitude towards such issues, rather than the cabbage like `acceptance` which seems to pervade our chess bodies.
I remember one of our well respected players vowing never to play county chess again, having been badgered over these rules... His comment that he came for an enjoyable days chess, not to be hastled and badgered with OTT rules, I felt said it all.....and cost us a valuable member of our team. He was a respected player who had given many years service to chess in the north west.
A two or three minute penalty for mobile infringement seems quite reasonable, unless it is apparent that the action was a deliberate act of attempted cheating.
Yes, for our top rated tournaments, there is a case for stricter enforcement.
I was at a county match a couple of weeks ago, and our opponents team captains phone went off after 5 moves...after consultation, the game was `reluctantly` claimed. I feel this is very disappointing...I dont know if the captain had his phone on in case of late messages from players, perhaps held up in traffic, etc...

Three cheers for the Surrey league....!!
BRING BACK THE BCF

Ian Thompson
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Three cheers for the Surrey league....!!
The Surrey Border League http://www.borderleague.org.uk/main.php is a different organisation from the Surrey League http://www.scca.co.uk/. They have also modified the mobile phone rule, but in a different way:

"Notwithstanding the relevant provisions of the Laws of Chess, it shall be permitted to bring mobile phones and other electronic means of communication into a playing venue. However, any such device may be used or answered only outside the playing area and must be switched off or in silent mode in the playing area. If any such device is used or produces any sound in the playing area during play, the player shall lose the game."

Trevor Davies
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Trevor Davies » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:16 pm

Glasgow Chess League has introduced a couple of exceptions to the FIDE Laws:

On mobile phones:
If a player’s mobile phone rings in the playing venue during his/her game, then his/her opponent shall be awarded an extra two minutes thinking time. If the same player’s phone rings again in the playing venue during the same game, that player will then lose the game.
His/her opponent will be awarded a win, regardless of the position on the board.

(Always tricky to frame fool-proof amendments!).

Judging by comments expressed hereabouts, there is widespread frustration at FIDE's failure to, (a) recognize that the Laws should be framed with amateurs in mind (rather then the miniscule number of professionals), (b) to distinquish between Laws and tournament regulations, and, (c), undertake the revision of the Laws in an open, measured, responsive and transparent fashion.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:56 pm

I played a match against Staffordshire recently and we used a rule where your phone had to go off twice for you to lose the game - that seemed more fair as, try as you might, alot of people do not check their phones carefully enough before a match and one or two accidentally get left on.

The rule is pretty good though, I used to get annoyed in the past when people would sit at the board sending text messages or even answer a ringing phone and have a conversation then and there - it has certainly weeded out that sort of behavior.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Mick Norris
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:43 am

Before our match on Saturday, David Anderton, Staffs captain, announced we were playing "Staffs mobile phone rules" which are exactly as Joey describes

Given not all the players were present (some were late arriving) I can see that a simple announcement to turn off mobiles might not work - certainly our captain needed to leave his on until all arrived (or in this case, we realised that 1 of ours wasn't going to, and had to use our sub)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Sean Hewitt

Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:34 am

Mick Norris wrote:Before our match on Saturday, David Anderton, Staffs captain, announced we were playing "Staffs mobile phone rules" which are exactly as Joey describes

Given not all the players were present (some were late arriving) I can see that a simple announcement to turn off mobiles might not work - certainly our captain needed to leave his on until all arrived (or in this case, we realised that 1 of ours wasn't going to, and had to use our sub)
Interesting Mick. Given that this was an MCCU match, and that under the rules of that competition a mobile phone going off leads to a loss.

I wonder what would have happened if a phone had gone off and the opponent (possibly not aware of the announcement) claimed the game as per the rules of the competition.

Changing rules for a competition is fine. Making rules up on the hoof match by match is a very dangerous thing!

Mick Norris
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:42 am

It was the same rule that applied last year in Staffs, but not the previous year when they came to Stockport to play us - fortunately, no-one has had to test it out
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Anthony Taglione » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:33 pm

I don't accept this differentiation between amateur and professional. When a chessplayer sits down for a match, in contrast to a friendly game, he's typically there to play at his best. This applies no less to an amateur than it does to a professional. It's of no relevance to me when I'm playing a game that there might be players in the room who hope to generate an income from the game they are playing and I expect the same considerations that they expect.

Causing a loud noise which is designed to be attention grabbing, such as a ring-tone, distracts everyone with hearing distance. The rule is clear and there to discourage either deliberate or "accidental" ringing. To dismiss an inadvertent neglect to turn off one's phone as being accidental and thus worthy of pardon is waiving a player's responsibility to other players in the room to permit them the appropriate environment for cogitation. Anyone in a chess hall or room where a match is being played has a responsibility to the players not to cause unreasonable distraction.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Mobile Phone problems at local league level.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:51 pm

Anthony Taglione wrote:When a chessplayer sits down for a match, in contrast to a friendly game, he's typically there to play at his best.
The counter argument which many evening leagues use is that a player has travelled possibly for up to an hour, if not more, for potentially three hours of chess. If the game can be over in three minutes because of a technicality, then they won't bother in future and the league collapses. I doubt anyone disputes that the rules should say that mobiles must not be used during the game, the issue arising is the nature of the penalty.

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