Strange Fault with DGT Clock

[Ian Kingston]

In that case Sean, this is another case of ludicrasly bad and nonsensical chess law.
All logic in my book says that, when you hit the time control, the clocks should be set back and show your correct allocation of time at that point.

Depends what you mean by 'time control'. A careful reading of the laws indicates that it actually means 'when a flag falls'. It is, after all, a time control, not a move control.

Consider the situation in which both players stop recording their moves during a time scramble. You can hardly stop the clocks before a flag falls just because one player thinks the required number of moves have been made - what if that player is wrong? So it's natural to play until one flag falls - which is the time control.

[Mick Norris]

Saturday was the first time for many of us to use digital clocks with incremental time controls

Essex, as well as bringing the equipment, provided written details of the way the increment worked with the DGT 2010 clocks, and followed up with a verbal explanation to all the players before play started, included answering questions

Digital clocks are the future, we all just have to get used to how they work

[David Sedgwick]

The laws of chess are clear. You must add additional time only when one players flag has fallen. Everybody in England does it wrong - unless they are using DGT clocks

I'm struggling. To what Law exactly are you referring?

[IM Jack Rudd]

The laws of chess are clear. You must add additional time only when one players flag has fallen. Everybody in England does it wrong - unless they are using DGT clocks

I'm struggling. To what Law exactly are you referring?

These laws, I think:

6.2 a. When using a chess clock, each player must make a minimum number of moves or all moves in an allotted period of time and/or may be allocated an additional amount of time with each move. All these must be specified in advance.
...
6.3 Immediately after a flag falls, the requirements of article 6.2 a. must be checked.

[Alan Walton]

Could somebody correct me if I am incorrect with this statement

You cannot stop notating your moves before any time control (i.e. before move 40 in 4NCL), you only can stop notating if you are in a quickplay finish.

Also, you have to keep an up-to-date valid score sheet, therefore you it is your own fault if the flag falls and haven't made the correct number of moves

[Sean Hewitt]

Could somebody correct me if I am incorrect with this statement

You cannot stop notating your moves before any time control (i.e. before move 40 in 4NCL), you only can stop notating if you are in a quickplay finish.

That's wrong Alan. You can stop notating if you have less than 5 mins left to any time control - not just the last one.

Also, you have to keep an up-to-date valid score sheet, therefore you it is your own fault if the flag falls and haven't made the correct number of moves

It's certainly only the players fault if his flag falls and he has not made the required number of moves.

[Alan Walton]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I did notice that Dave Pardoe mentioned they were playing with an increment, therefore they cannot stop notating

[Ian Kingston]

The increment in David's example was only 10 seconds. You need at least a 30 second increment before the requirement to keep score is removed.

[David Sedgwick]

The laws of chess are clear. You must add additional time only when one players flag has fallen. Everybody in England does it wrong - unless they are using DGT clocks

I'm struggling. To what Law exactly are you referring?

These laws, I think:

6.2 a. When using a chess clock, each player must make a minimum number of moves or all moves in an allotted period of time and/or may be allocated an additional amount of time with each move. All these must be specified in advance.
...
6.3 Immediately after a flag falls, the requirements of article 6.2 a. must be checked.

Thanks Jack.

If there is any doubt as to whether a time control has been reached, then of course nothing should be done until a flag has fallen.

However, if it's clear than the requisite number of moves have been made, then I don't think that the Laws which you quote preclude the traditional English practice of the players turning their (manual) clocks back 15 minutes (or whatever) at that point. Am I missing something?

The Preface to the Laws makes it clear that the Laws are not designed to cover every situation.

[David Pardoe]

These rules/clocks are a total nonsense and a mish-mash of inconsistancy, in my view.
You are counting both `number of moves`, and time.
Once you reach the control, you should allot the extra allocation of time due `at the point when the required moves are completed`, and the point when your alloted `extra time` is due. This happens clearly with the old style analogue clocks.
Otherwise, if an oversight occurs, you could lose on time, thinking you were actually within the time/move limits.
That is plain madness, in my view.
Yes, people can make mistakes, they can misrecord, they could end up not being sure of the number of moves played.
Some people do have sight impairments, for example, and may not see there own score sheet properly in some light...or bad light, or might not recognise `clock symbols`, etc. I`ve seen players rule a line under the wrong move on the score sheet...or circle a move that did not correspond to the actual control. Yes, you can say it is there own fault...but sensible checks and balances would be prudent.
And, reading these posts, it does seem that these clocks can operate in differring modes??
I have played with a digital clock on one previous occasion, but reached a conclusion before the time control.
To have to relay on a 5 minute presentation on this, just prior to a match is also not really satisfactory...you may just not hear some points clearly, for one thing.
And, if Im not mistaken, the move rate prescribed at that county match was not even strictly legal for the match, but that is not particularly of concern to me.

[Alan Walton]

Dave,

I am sympathetic with your worries, I think most of us had similar problems the first time we used them (new technology and all).

But after using them more and more frequently, they get alot easier to understand

I think the problems that may have occured is with different people setting the clocks up with slightly different settings

The point around visually impaired people is quite an easy thing to get around, I have played in Spain and at their tournaments they provide a digital clock which has an earpiece attached which can relay the current time and move to them

I think they are going to be the future, so I would recommend any club purchasing one just so people can practice on them, 3Cs currently have about 8 of them, and soon we will be using them in the Manchester league

[Ian Kingston]

Once you reach the control, you should allot the extra allocation of time due `at the point when the required moves are completed`, and the point when your alloted `extra time` is due. This happens clearly with the old style analogue clocks.

Again: in a mutual time scramble in which the moves are not being recorded, 'the point when the required moves are completed' is unclear and the only practical solution is to play until one flag falls. There is no difference between analogue and digital clocks under these circumstances (unless short increments are being used, when I suppose flag fall might never occur when using digital clocks). It makes sense for the laws to recognise this and for flag fall to be the point at which the clocks are adjusted, whether automatically or manually.

As David Sedgwick pointed out, there's no harm in adjusting the clocks when both players agree that the necessary moves have been made. Digital clocks remove that option, but the change doesn't really take a lot of getting used to.

[Alex Holowczak]

Digital clocks are the future. It's far easier to add the increment for the quickplay finish, because you can be certain 15 minutes is being added on, not 14:49 or something that you would on an analogue clock. They're cheaper than analogue clocks now; I don't know how long their lifetime is by comparison.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"I did notice that Dave Pardoe mentioned they were playing with an increment, therefore they cannot stop notating"

I believe that if the increment is at least 30 seconds you have to continue recording each move.

I have reminded players in tournaments (with traditional time-controls), who have stopped recording, "You must record until you have less than 5 minutes left", and then they try to record when they have 5 seconds left. Players do get confused...

[Alex Holowczak]

I have reminded players in tournaments (with traditional time-controls), who have stopped recording, "You must record until you have less than 5 minutes left"

People sometimes assume it's when your opponent gets down to less than 5 minutes left. E.g. if you have half an hour left, and your opponent has 30 seconds to do KR v K, the temptation to try and blitz him is too much... Of course, the smart strategy in that situation would be to let your clock tick down for 25 minutes (so you don't have to record), and then try and blitz him.