Adjournments and Adjudication

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matt_ward
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Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:20 pm

I have got a "old fairy" and it does tend to find it's way up alot on the ECF chess forum; Although I feel obliged to say my view in the matter. I have been thinking and it's brought to my attention that I think Adjournments and Adjudication should no longer be an option in any of the Ameteur Leagues, The reason I say this is because some leagues these two are not allowed already, And I find this the best policy due to all kinds of arguments that can ocur and that people tend to take ages when a adjournment has been incompleted, and this then means the match cards are incompleted, and it's just a hassle for the captains.

The idea of club match nights in my opinion is that there shouldn't be another option other than playing all the moves on all the night. Which is why the club matches tend to start later in the evening. In contrary to this if it's not presidented in fide laws of chess why on earth should ECF be any different in that respect, the idea of playing chess is that you play the game "YOURSELF" emphasise on this word; I mean it is theortically cheating because they adjourn for one reason so they if in difficult position or there is only one line to hold a draw etc. It's just disgraceful, and a total shambles.

With this is mind why on earth have an adjudication one this could take along time for this process to proceed. And it should be up to the person to realise in chess when they have lost rather than getting a "Very Strong player to judge the game for them it's ludicrous because that person judging the game might indeed see a complicated idea in a position that the club player wouldn't see for example; And therefore this could be made on biased decision, and the result my not reflect the game.

Best Wishes Matt :D :) :D :D

Will enjoy to hear any views on this matter!

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:10 pm

As if we don't already have enough threads on this........ :roll: :lol:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:13 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:As if we don't already have enough threads on this........ :roll: :lol:
Maybe it's time for Carl to make a special section? :lol:

Or seriously, maybe he can just merge it with another thread.

matt_ward
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:51 pm

I don't think there is enough or enough views on this otherwise the ECF would have banned this along time ago. There needs to be a partition to get to many people to back my argument for this to be banned. Fide have done this why don't ECF. Are they worried they will lose money or loose members of the ECF membership.

best Wishes Matt.

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Anthony Taglione » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:11 pm

Matt's comments on the expectation of cheating are a fresh slant to the adjournment merry-go-round.

Arguably, between sessions is not "during the game", though, and so taking advice or referring to notes is not disallowed.

matt_ward
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:15 pm

Thank you, Anthony so are you allowed to take notes with you whilst your playing then! and refer to them whilst playing or Have I misunderstood you entirely!

Matt.

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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:16 pm

matt_ward wrote:I don't think there is enough or enough views on this otherwise the ECF would have banned this along time ago. There needs to be a partition to get to many people to back my argument for this to be banned. Fide have done this why don't ECF. Are they worried they will lose money or loose members of the ECF membership.

best Wishes Matt.
Well, the ECF can't ban them at League level, because they don't run the Leagues. Indeed, the London League predates the ECF.

All the ECF can do is say they won't grade adjournments or adjudications. Regardless, many leagues may still keep the rule.

The petition you propose is a good idea - but do it on a local level; i.e. at your club, with other teams in your league. If a significant majority of people sign it, present it to the Rules Committee of your League (or whatever), then they should change the rule without a problem. However, I'm not sure you will receive much support with the over-30 demographic. While nearly every junior in this land agrees with you, not every junior plays league chess.

matt_ward
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:36 pm

Thank you for your support I will create a petition in due course. I think this is important to do, funny enough alex, there is a reasonable amount of juniors. But of course there are more older people than play in the league.

I will do my best at this and then forward it onto the AGM! I mean I know it might seem slightly out of order, but at the end of the day the evening club matches are designed to be played on the night. Not for games to be postponed for weeks on end or to be sent of for assessment; if someone can't see they are losing or winning a position I just pitty them.

Matt. :D :D

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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:43 pm

I don't think it's out of order at all, I've been trying to do the same thing in the Birmingham League. It will fall on deaf ears. So I've stopped playing in it. Play in a local league that has quickplay finishes instead. If there isn't one, limit yourself to congresses. If anyone asks why you've stopped playing in the league, you have a ready-made reason why.

Of course, when you get to University, join their chess society, and play in my events instead. :wink:

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Anthony Taglione » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:13 pm

matt_ward wrote:Thank you, Anthony so are you allowed to take notes with you whilst your playing then! and refer to them whilst playing or Have I misunderstood you entirely!

Matt.
As you are aware, such a thing would be cheating.

Your suggestion that referring to notes or taking advice during an adjournment is cheating needs to have some validity in the rules of chess in order that it might retain substance. For it to be cheating, it must be considered that over the period of adjournment, ie in the period between sessions, the game is still in progress and the rules of chess continue to apply to the players. This, unfortunately, would prevent such things as: making use of any electronic communications device; reading the paper if it has a chess column; allowing one's mobile phone to make a noise and any other incidents of similar nature you care to imagine.

As such, given the absurdity of suggesting that a player in adjournment continues to be bound by the laws of chess and so must forsake modern society, I would contest that the period of adjournment is not a period considered to be "during the game". It is thus not against the rules of chess to refer to notes nor to solicit or receive advice. Not being against the rules, it is, perforce, not cheating.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:50 am

Anthony Taglione wrote:As such, given the absurdity of suggesting that a player in adjournment continues to be bound by the laws of chess and so must forsake modern society, I would contest that the period of adjournment is not a period considered to be "during the game". It is thus not against the rules of chess to refer to notes nor to solicit or receive advice. Not being against the rules, it is, perforce, not cheating.
Equivalents to adjudication and adjournment are not unknown in the physical sports. For example the Duckworth-Lewis method in cricket and points victories in boxing are an equivalent of adjudication. In football and other team games, the half-time (adjournment) break gives the manager the chance to change both the strategy and in some cases the entire team.

Supporters of adjudication and adjournment consider a three hour club session an inadequate period of time to play a full game of chess. Adjudication supporters would like to just play half a game and have someone else notionally play the rest. Adjournment supporters want to play half the game this week and the other half at some unspecified future date. Both camps are slowly losing out to those who find three hours enough for a reasonable game.

matt_ward
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:49 am

Roger if this is so there hasn't seen to been enough complaints regarding the time control is to short otherwise it would of been changed that's ridiculous; also Roger, the point of making that analogy with "cricket does not wash with me. The reason for me saying this is because Duck- Worth lewis is only introduced if there has been a restriction of overs, due to rain etc, etc. Therefore this is essential to make the game fair, and give a projectory score in however many overs.

The fact of the matter these two options in chess shouldn't be allowed I don't see anything argument "for" them to be honest. What's the need to get someone to assess a position it should be up to the two people playing the game it's a waste of time and money. And nevertheless cheating also, if you think about it, Roger and as for adjournments well there is even less point of having these as mentioned previously I believe the "Leagues" have been designed to play the game on the night not for postponements it shouldn't be allowed, because I don't believe there is any other reason for people needing to adjourn other than the fact they can get people to look at their game or just simply stick in a computer.

Matt.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:50 am

matt_ward wrote:previously I believe the "Leagues" have been designed to play the game on the night
The Berks League is, I think, over a hundred years old. I'd imagine that adjudication was in the very first rule set. The abolition of adjudication is only a recent development. Quite why British club chess got itself so fixated with adjudications is an historic mystery. Perhaps in the distant past games were played without clocks. Adjournment was a more recent development, 1980s onwards. We only introduced it to try and dump adjudications because quickplay finishes or adjudications at move 60 plus weren't then acceptable.

matt_ward
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by matt_ward » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:57 am

So what do you think the proposal at the next AGM will be Roger, regarding adjudications or the Drunken Knights situation regarding alcohol.

Matt.

Andy Howie
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Andy Howie » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:31 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
matt_ward wrote:previously I believe the "Leagues" have been designed to play the game on the night
The Berks League is, I think, over a hundred years old. I'd imagine that adjudication was in the very first rule set. The abolition of adjudication is only a recent development. Quite why British club chess got itself so fixated with adjudications is an historic mystery. Perhaps in the distant past games were played without clocks. Adjournment was a more recent development, 1980s onwards. We only introduced it to try and dump adjudications because quickplay finishes or adjudications at move 60 plus weren't then acceptable.
British club chess???

We have not had leagues up here for a while that allow adjudications. It finally nailed at our last AGM where it was passed that Adjudicated games would not be graded.

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