Adjournments and Adjudication

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Michele Clack
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Michele Clack » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:48 pm

There are 61 teams in the Birmingham League, and 5 Officers also get a vote. The Quickplay-Adjournment election was won 32-29 by adjournments last season. The five officers have at least a 3-0 lead for adjournments, not sure how the other two stand. So it'll be about 32-32 depending on how those two vote... If the others have been convinced to pass the vote, then it could tip the scales in favour of Quickplays.
Is it a vote for each team then Alex rather than one per club? Redditch are in favour of quickplay finishes and we have 3 teams. This could be close. When the original proposal for changing to QP was taken a few years ago I'm sure we voted against. It was only a couple of years ago that we changed after a vote at the Club's AGM. With worsening travel conditions I suspect there are probably other Clubs who have changed their minds since that 1st vote, but I can't remember how close it was. If it gets through will you switch your proposed Aston Uni team to the Birmingham League? We need some new teams.

David Pardoe
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:57 pm

PaulTalbot wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Pardoe wrote: But, to facilitate this, our international events need to be revamped, perhaps, to make team sizes larger...say 8 - 10 member teams. That would mean we could aim for a mix of say 5 English, 2 Scots, 1 Wales, and 1 Northern Ireland player...and make this an inclusive event. Maybe even have one or two players more from outside `england` on occasions.
Outside of the Olympiad and Euro Team ( 5 player squad, 4 players in action), there aren't any international events in which ENG field a team. I'm aware that one of the UK's leading grandmasters would prefer there to be a UK team in such events. In practice though, for most of the last 30 years such a team if selected on strength and rating would have been composed entirely of ENG players.
Part of the problem of this (speaking generally) is, we as a nation can't decide whether we are English or British. The Scots, Welsh and Irish have no such problems. They generally regard themselves as Scottish, Welsh or Irish. If you could eradicate the anti-English feelings that many of these people hold then you stand a chance of creating enough support for a united GB. So, if you want to establish a British Chess Federation that is what it must be, British. People will object if, in order to establish a BCF, you disband the ECF but allow the allow the Irish, Welsh and Scottish federations to remain.

No, I dont see this as a `big brother` organisation, more as a mutual fellowship, with the BCF acting as an umbrella body. helping to co-ordinate UK chess. Each of the elements has a strong role to play.
No, we definately dont disband the other federations. In fact it would be good to hold `home championships`, even if England would win fairly easily, just like Portsmouth beating Spurs, you might say!
There is of course the Commonwealth scene, and maybe thats another chance to develop our international bonds.
BRING BACK THE BCF

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:18 pm

michele clack wrote:
There are 61 teams in the Birmingham League, and 5 Officers also get a vote. The Quickplay-Adjournment election was won 32-29 by adjournments last season. The five officers have at least a 3-0 lead for adjournments, not sure how the other two stand. So it'll be about 32-32 depending on how those two vote... If the others have been convinced to pass the vote, then it could tip the scales in favour of Quickplays.
Is it a vote for each team then Alex rather than one per club? Redditch are in favour of quickplay finishes and we have 3 teams. This could be close. When the original proposal for changing to QP was taken a few years ago I'm sure we voted against. It was only a couple of years ago that we changed after a vote at the Club's AGM. With worsening travel conditions I suspect there are probably other Clubs who have changed their minds since that 1st vote, but I can't remember how close it was. If it gets through will you switch your proposed Aston Uni team to the Birmingham League? We need some new teams.
I'm about to quote documents that no one else other than Michele has access to, but I mention it here because it is perhaps of overall interest.

If you look at page 19 of the BDCL Handbook, read Article 19 of the Constitution, titled "Voting". In particular, 19(e):

A full vote at a Management Committee or a General Meeting shall consist of the following: -

(i) Each officer of the League (other than Vice-Presidents) shall have one vote, irrespective of the number of additional offices any such individual may hold. (Refer to Article 9(i) on page 15 for a list of the officers by title. Cross-reference those with the names found on pages 3 and 4.)

(ii) Each member club shall have one vote for each of its teams taking part, for the time being, in the League competition and no other votes shall be allowed to be cast in respect thereof.

So basically, if you enter 3 teams, you get three votes. This is distinct from having one vote counting three, i.e. you can split your votes if you want to for some reason.

The problem with entering an Aston University team is that Sam Doran and I already play for Warley Quinborne, and our board 1 may play for them too. The challenge will be whether or not I can find four other players to play in the games. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3. Entering an Aston team would be a bit of a gamble. If the proposal in the BDCL is successful, and I would end up in an AD team at Warley Quinborne (possible), then I'd play for Aston University in Division Six, who would be QP. I could field myself, two other players who are about 120 and 110, as well as another player who has been learning, but hasn't been thrust into competition just yet. If other players join, I can register them after the initial registration date. A problem for University clubs generally is that they would have to register their entry by August 31, but won't actually know how many players can play for them until early October. I may have a ~ 150 graded player hanging around too, he's unsure whether to stay and do a Masters next year or not... Another option for the BDCL is that I could pinch a few players from Birmingham University if needs be, who I doubt will enter it themselves.

I will enter a team into the Cannock League regardless, because Sam and I can play for Aston, because Warley Quinborne don't field a team in it.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:26 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The final Lloyds Bank event in 1994 was using digital clocks and a QP finish as did that year's British. I think 1994 was the first year the British didn't have adjournments, when did the Lloyds switch?
John Saunders wrote: I'm pretty sure Lloyds Bank used 40/2, 20/1 plus all/30 in 1992 when I first played in it but I wouldn't know before then.
Wrong on two counts, John.

I have the entry forms for 1990 to 1994 inclusive, the years when I was a member of the control team.

1990, 1991 and 1992: 40 moves in 2 hours, followed by 20 moves in 1 hour (repeating). Adjournments after 6 hours.
1993 and 1994: 40 moves in 2 hours, followed by 20 moves in 1 hour, followed by all moves in 1 hour. A single 8 hour session.

So the Lloyds Bank Masters still had your beloved adjournments in 1992. When the change came a year later, it was to an 8 hour session.

English events switched from 8 hours to 7 hours later in the 1990s, when it became clear that the latter was the new standard.

Richard Bates
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:10 pm

Do you know what time control we used to play at Sutton, when there were adjournments?

David Sedgwick
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:05 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Do you know what time control we used to play at Sutton, when there were adjournments?
No, but I'll try to find out.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:27 am

"Do you know what time control we used to play at Sutton, when there were adjournments?"

I think it was 48 in 2 hours, then 24 an hour?

I remember playing in that when there was adjudication at the end of the session..., when Leonard Barden or Frank Parr would wander round and give a fairly instant assessment!
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:I remember playing in that when there was adjudication at the end of the session..., when Leonard Barden or Frank Parr would wander round and give a fairly instant assessment!
I found the results bulletin recently for the 2nd Surrey Congress in 1976 which mentions (and defends) adjudication. In those days Surrey was a weekender rather than an Easter event. Even in 1976, the world had moved on and adjudication in weekend tournaments was virtually in the past. There was a curious expedient in the changeover period between adjudication and quick play, the 10 minute rule. This made the very sensible call that if you had to wait twenty minutes for the adjudicator to turn up, then you might as well settle the game yourself by playing a 10 minute game starting with the end of session position. This rule didn't last long and was changed to the quick play finish we know today.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed May 05, 2010 12:42 am

So tonight was the date of my final Birmingham League match for the time being; a playoff against Redditch for the Division Five title.

I won my game just after the time control, and with the score at 3-2, adjournment was forced upon the players at 10:20 (whether they liked it or not, it appeared). Three games in a Division Two promotion playoff were also adjourned. There then began about half an hour of analysis of the adjourned positions by all and sundry, until the neutral venue's club secretaries (who bear more than a passing resemblance to Thomson and Thompson - not in a bad way!) told us jocularly to "**** off now, because we're going for a drink." Charming.

The person I was getting a lift home from then retired to the bar for half an hour with the other club-mates, while I of course had to wait. Eventually, we were ready to go at 11:30.

The argument that there isn't enough time for a League game on one night is nonsense if an extra hour is spent analysing the adjourned position, and then drinking at the bar. The reality is that they'd much rather drink at the bar, and finishing a game of chess is, apparently, the second priority. While waiting, the topic of me not playing in the League next year was brought up, at which point I was told that I always have the option next season to "**** off and play in a corner while the rest of us have fun." At this point, a group of obviously drunk people with a thick Brummie accent began singing along to this Stevie Wonder classic.

Is this an inviting environment for young players to play chess in?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed May 05, 2010 8:27 am

One sensible thing Surrey CCA has done (and I might have suggested it) is to say that all matches played after the end of April are compulsory QP finish, as the competitions theoretically finish at the end of April. Adjourning games now is crazy as they may well not be continued until next season...
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed May 05, 2010 9:00 am

The adjourned games last night will be completed on May 25th, apparently.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed May 05, 2010 7:02 pm

More likely they will agree draws by phone long before then, unless the positions had any sort of winning chances.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu May 06, 2010 12:00 am

Joey Stewart wrote:More likely they will agree draws by phone long before then, unless the positions had any sort of winning chances.
The one in our match does; he's the exchange up. We're 3-2 down, so that'll level the playoff at 3-3. Rather than have yet another playoff, we will then win the division on board count.

Tonight I attended the Birmingham League Division One Championship Playoff, which alas I couldn't stay until the end to see. Their club secretary was complaining about the proposal to change the default from adjournment to quickplay to one of his clubmates. I offered the alternative opinion.

He said that quickplay finishes were a lottery. I said that they're at least you playing the game, and not seeking alternative assistance. I said that every congress in the UK has abandoned adjournments. He said that they were a lottery because you couldn't play the endgame properly, and would make mistakes. I said he would always make mistakes; as we all do. "Why ruin a good position, and mess up the game I'm winning?" Because you're taking too long to win it, I replied.

I said that it's virtually impossible for people my age to get around Birmingham to attend these things, because they can't get around on their own. He said that "we always did it when I was that age." I said that it is now 2010, so whatever applied in the past was irrelevant.

I said that when the Olympiad has games that are no longer than 5 hours, why do we need 5 hours for a league match? He said that we don't get 5 hours. I commented that 2*2.5=5 (each session is a minimum of 2.5 hours), and that if Kramnik, Carlsen etc. are happy to play a game of such length, why do we need as much time as them?

I then said that almost no juniors like adjournments, and in time, the motion would pass. He said that if it did, he hopes he is dead first. He then said that if the motion were to pass, he'd put one in the next year to get it repealed.

He then walked off to play someone.

The fact of the matter seemed to me that he doesn't think he's very good at chess, and doesn't know how to win an endgame unless he has a long time to work it out. Perhaps I should have suggested correspondence chess to him.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu May 06, 2010 11:24 pm

Its not hard to improve playing speed, all it takes is a few blitz sessions and you are soon playing far quicker - I find it a poor arguement to say that league time controls dont give enough time to play endgames, it is simply that the players are not willing to bother to put the effort in to get fast and want everyone else to suffer for this defeciency.

I cant really get too involved with making any birmingham related comments, as they are sure to rebound on me one day or another, but I will say that the arguements against adjournments are too strong to be brushed under the carpet of tradition any longer and a change is well overdue.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Re: Adjournments and Adjudication

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu May 06, 2010 11:38 pm

Well, linking in my junior problems and adjournment problems, I may have a solution that kills two birds with one stone. Enter a team for the juniors in the Birmingham League, which is great for the League and great for the players, and it also means I can get another vote for quickplay finishes. Having spoken to them personally, both the children and parents prefer quickplay finishes.

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