Rules about drinking alcohol before or during matches

[George Szaszvari]

George Szaszvari I think your point on the alcohol is interesting and probably very well justified. I do agree that depending on the circumstances and the person(s) drinking in front of juniors could be a blessing.
It would show how to act responsibility and give good social awareness, of course if their were adults or people my age 19 playing chess and drinking infront of children acting childish and rather petulant then NO that would be unacceptable.
But if there are people drinking in moderation your totally right! It could show the children how to behave on consuming such a drug (Alcohol) and would demonstrate how one should behave whilst drinking alcohol and playing chess.

Matt, I only mentioned the point because in the 90s I came across the following example in England. A father
had his son (a scholastic chess player, no names I'm afraid, even if I could remember, since, even though it
was private company, it was still clearly illegal) partaking of wine with the rest of the adults after evening
dinner. I was not the only one who was rather surprised by this under aged drinking and I had the nerve to
ask the dad about it. He assured me that his boy (aged about 14 or 15) was properly educated in how much
was enough and how to behave under the influence. It has to be said that the boy behaved well enough and
did a lot better than many adults I used to know! In this case there was no drinking in the presence of other
juniors and it was supervised by daddy in the polite company of a number of respected teachers. In places
like France, around the Mediterranean and south east Europe, it used to be normal (and probably still is) for
the whole family, older kids included, to drink wine at mealtimes, so even if it is unusual in England, there is
plenty of precedence for it elsewhere.

[Mike Truran]

I didn't think it's illegal for minors to drink at home? At least this is what www. direct.gov.uk has to say:

Drinking at home

It is not illegal for a person under 18 to drink alcohol at home or at a friend’s house. Parents can choose to give young people some of their own alcohol when at home.

Maybe it was back in the 90s though!

[Stewart Reuben]

Of course I first had wine when I was 9 days old.
When I was 9 my 8 year old cousin got drunk.
Both were religious occasions.
Stewart Reuben

[Roger de Coverly]

Looking ahead, the most interesting question is what will happen with drugs that are what we call in physiology/pharmacology "Cognitive Enhancers' - always assuming there is ever a really convincing one developed - as these are the kind of agent you would think would be most generally advantageous for something like chess. Modafinil (aka Provigil) is one drug currently around that springs to mind.

A quick look at your smart phone is likely to be far more useful and a greater threat.

In terms of banning cognitive enhancers, it is worth pointing out that caffeine is a reasonably good one, and I dare say no-one has suggested banning a player from bringing a Thermos flask of coffee. Can anyone advise?

Actually they did. The list of banned substances is arbitrary, but it did have caffeine on it for a while. The curious compromise is that FIDE does as little as it can get away with, whilst allowing national organisations access to sports funding.

[George Szaszvari]

I didn't think it's illegal for minors to drink at home? At least this is what www. direct.gov.uk has to say:
Drinking at home
It is not illegal for a person under 18 to drink alcohol at home or at a friend’s house. Parents can choose to give young people some of their own alcohol when at home.
Maybe it was back in the 90s though!

I stand corrected, thanks, and it looks like I erred on the side of caution because it was the first time
I'd seen it in Britain, even though commonplace in some other lands I'd been to. I don't know that such
things are likely to have changed since the 90s. The occasion wasn't "at home" but at a schools chess
event during a holiday period. I suppose the parent in charge being present qualifies it more or less as
being "at home". Interesting, since it now has me wondering about such laws in the USA where the legal
age to consume alcohol varies from state to state, anywhere between 18 to 21, and tends to be strictly
enforced. There are all kinds of "open container" restrictions here about having a labeled bottle or can
in a public place not licensed for alcohol consumption, such laws being responsible for the classic image
of the raggedy wino on the street corner with his booze container wrapped in a brown paper bag!
I don't know if that makes boozing on the street any more legal, but when purchasing a bottle at the
store I tend to ask for the brown paper bag (which gives the glass better protection than plastic,) and
that wino image always has me smiling and set up for a joke about it with the checkout teller.

[Stewart Reuben]

Warren Kingston >Doesn't playing chess in itself create a drug?<

I presume you mean that it has a physiological effect that causes a drug to be formed in the body. This must be true for some people, especially those who get high on the adrenaline rush of time trouble.
But whether it is true of all players at all times is quite another matter.

I suspect George Szaszvari has confused us with the Laws in the US and the UK which are quite different about alcohol consumption.
Stewart Reuben

[George Szaszvari]

Warren Kingston >Doesn't playing chess in itself create a drug?<
I presume you mean that it has a physiological effect that causes a drug to be formed in the body. This must be true for some people, especially those who get high on the adrenaline rush of time trouble.
But whether it is true of all players at all times is quite another matter.

I noticed how my own weakening motivation for competitive chess in the 90s coincided with the disappearance
of the "high", or excitement, for the game, without which there seemed to be little point in competing (which
does not necessarily mean one cannot continue to enjoy playing in a less serious context). Perhaps this explains
why some, who are otherwise intellectually/spatially, etc, better equipped than most to play chess well, play
the game so badly: they might simply be too level headed to be triggered by any competitive excitement, and
therefore have no real motivation. Any advance on this notion? I'm thinking of Botvinnik's remark concerning
how the brilliant Norbert Wiener was such a terrible chess player, with the implication that Wiener might have
otherwise made more of a direct contribution to the development of the earliest electronic chess playing automatons
in the West (as the ideal model for a decision making machine), when the Soviets took a clear lead in such advances.

I suspect George Szaszvari has confused us with the Laws in the US and the UK which are quite different about alcohol consumption.

I suspect you are right...all these different laws everywhere can get pretty confusing, especially after a few
glasses [hic]

[Kevin Thurlow]

"Over 60 and there are no rules regarding drugs in WADA."

Stewart - I still don't think this is right! Last time I read the WADA regulations, I didn't find any sort of age limit mentioned. I may have missed it. I wouldn't expect an age limit as some competitiors in the Olympics could be over 60 (e.g. equestrian events).

I have (as part of my work) identified drugs which may help chess, but the reported side-effects are a bit worrying.

[Stewart Reuben]

Possibly it is a rule local to chess as we have so many competitors over 60.

All drugs have side-effects. It is whether their benefits outweigh the disadvantages. There is also the problem of two drugs causing an interaction problem.

Stewart Reuben

[John Clarke]

George Szaszvari I think your point on the alcohol is interesting and probably very well justified. I do agree that depending on the circumstances and the person(s) drinking in front of juniors could be a blessing.
It would show how to act responsibility and give good social awareness, of course if their were adults or people my age 19 playing chess and drinking infront of children acting childish and rather petulant then NO that would be unacceptable.
But if there are people drinking in moderation your totally right! It could show the children how to behave on consuming such a drug (Alcohol) and would demonstrate how one should behave whilst drinking alcohol and playing chess.

Matt, I only mentioned the point because in the 90s I came across the following example in England. A father
had his son (a scholastic chess player, no names I'm afraid, even if I could remember, since, even though it
was private company, it was still clearly illegal) partaking of wine with the rest of the adults after evening
dinner. I was not the only one who was rather surprised by this under aged drinking and I had the nerve to
ask the dad about it. He assured me that his boy (aged about 14 or 15) was properly educated in how much
was enough and how to behave under the influence. It has to be said that the boy behaved well enough and
did a lot better than many adults I used to know! In this case there was no drinking in the presence of other
juniors and it was supervised by daddy in the polite company of a number of respected teachers. In places
like France, around the Mediterranean and south east Europe, it used to be normal (and probably still is) for
the whole family, older kids included, to drink wine at mealtimes, so even if it is unusual in England, there is
plenty of precedence for it elsewhere.

Another example from my own experience, during the mid-60s.

At that time my school team was competing in a local adult league. The majority of us on any given match night would have been under 18, one or two being being as young as 14 or 15. This was usually no problem, since most of the clubs met in libraries, community centres or (in the case of works teams) staff canteens.

There was however one which met in a pub, and not just one of the upstairs rooms either, but one of the smaller less-used bars which they were allowed to take over for the evening. And the choice of refreshments, rather than the customary lukewarm tea or coffee was (their words) "anything out of the bar"!

Needless to say, the older and bolder of our lads were straight into the beer. (Sociological note: getting on to the booze at an early(-ish) age was far more of a big deal, from either side of the fence, 40 or 50 years ago.)

What the legal position was on this situation, I wouldn't like to say. In one sense, it was a private gathering with an acceptable degree of adult supervision. In another, it was a public gathering to which anyone could gain entry (few clubs, even then, would have discouraged prospective new members). I guess though that by any strict interpretation, anyone under 16 oughtn't to have been on the premises at all, never mind sampling the wares.

Legal or not, the host club didn't seem at all bothered, although I'm fairly sure they would have acted responsibly and knocked back a request for alcohol from anyone obviously too young. None of our lot were too concerned either. To us, as to any group of similar age and circumstances, it was just a bit of a lark, the sort of thing you did from time to time as you grew up. I played there maybe half a dozen times in all, and never once witnessed any behaviour that was unto Ward (sorry, Matt - couldn't resist that one!).

(There was another pub-based team, in a neighbouring league, where I also played once or twice, but their catering was strictly of the tea-and-buns variety.)

[Gavin Strachan]

Nimbyism.

[Malcolm Clarke]

Talking about alcohol in general, when I used to go out for a lunch time drink with work colleagues in the mid 1980's, I was impressed by how well some people handled their drink, and this could well have been an eye opener to anyone who at that time thought drinking of alcohol was inextricably linked to binge drinking.

The lunch time drinking culture is often frowned upon these days, but in my opinion it is more likely to teach people to drink moderately. than more restrictive practices, which may lead to people drinking more heavily in environments when these restrictions are relaxed.

Personally speaking I would never drink more than one pint in a game of competitive chess. I have on a handful of occasions played against opponents who have drunk more than this, but this has either made no difference, or adversely affected their own play.

[Nevil Chan]

Alcoholic beverage should only be permitted before, during, and after a chess match.

[Stewart Reuben]

That wwould have the added advantage that everybody who wants to drink alcohol would have to play chess.
Stewart Reuben

[Nigel Wright]

As my first post in almost 2 years, I must express my shock at such a topic ever being thought up in the first place! Surely beer and chess go hand in hand like the cinema and popcorn, or restaurants and food?! On a more serious note however, I simply do not have the time to read all of this thread so have limited myself to pages 1 and 10 to get a rough idea of the argument, so perhaps I may say something which somebody else has already discussed, for which I apologise in advance!

With pubs being venues for a lot of clubs, it would be impossible to avoid beer. Even if the argument is one which is against beer breath, surely being in a pub the aroma of beer is going to be present. Unless the idea is to ban alcohol form pubs altogether?

Also, drawing on my own experiences back in 2002-2006, when I was 14-18 and therefore unable to drink alcohol but playing in a pub most matches, I never perceived alcohol to be a problem. My club captain who always gave me a lift to the venue as I was obviously unable to drive myself always bought me a pint of coke anyway, whilst the rest of the team enjoyed a beer with our opponents before the game started, and probably continued to consume 2/3 pints each during the rest of the evening (apart form the designated driver, of course!). I never saw any drunken behaviour that would bring the sport into disrepute, or give any parents reason for not allowing their child to be in that sort of atmosphere, or that put myself off.

When I turned 18 in 2006, I was delighted to be able to enjoy a beer or 6 with my opponents, and it helped me enjoy my chess more. Only once did I get drunk whilst playing chess, but it just so happened that my opponent was playing very slowly and England were on the big screen in the other room and as such I literally stood at the bar for most of the game, but thankfully after 5 pints in the first half my opponent offered me a draw to which I gladly accepted as I was almost at the slurred speech stage! My opponent was not put off by this, and admitted that he partially offered the draw because he was jealous and wanted to join me at the bar watching the match! However, I have refrained from doing that since, and stick to 2 pints maximum on the rare occasion that I play chess nowadays, as do the majority of chess players that I see.

I have to say beer breath has never been an issue for me, I have never been put off by it or even noticed it or had a complaint about my own. Beer sales are a vital income for venues for clubs, many players have just finished a hard day at work and won't be able to survive a hard match without a nice beer, and many of the older generation of players enjoy sampling different Real Ales at different venues they may travel to. If the players were limited to drinking these after the game only, can you imagine a pub in the middle of nowhere staying open after 11pm (or whenever the match might finish depending on time controls) just to sell a pint or two?

Obviously if a player is incredibly intoxicated and is causing a disruption to his opponent and those around him then penalties should incur, but if it is drunk and disorderly anyway it would be a Police matter... And as for noise - a lot of venues will have other events on at the same time in other rooms, noise is always present from outside, and as for pubs, there will always be loud drunken men in another room - so are you going to tell them to shush, tell birds and cars to be quieter, thunder to wait til after your match etc.?

Smoking is obviously not much of an issue as smoking in public places is banned, but when I was 14 our venue was full of the same 5/6 regulars (non-chess playing) who smoked like chimneys, and you could hardly see your pieces for the smoke, and my dad used to moan that I stank of cigarettes for a couple of days after, but it never put myself off.

A solution then, perhaps, for both noise and smell created potentially by alcohol - Ear plugs and a clothes peg. Can't imagine them costing an arm and a leg, tbh. You could even go the whole hog and imprint your clubs' logo onto these items for publicity if you so desired.


Just my 2 pence worth