NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

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Alex Holowczak
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:53 pm

David Pardoe wrote: Too much reliance on the web for message distribution, perhaps. ...
Then of course, we have the trusty `email`, thats assuming of course `they` will let you talk on the web....?
If you've submitted an e-mail address as a way of contacting you, then it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that you check it often enough to get a reply to e-mails. I'm now at the stage where if I can't contact someone by e-mail, then I won't bother contacting them at all. If I do have to call in exceptional circumstances, I ask for an e-mail address, so I can contact them via that in future. You don't have to be checking them all the time, once every other day is acceptable enough for most things.
David Pardoe wrote: Regarding Digital clocks...I have it on good authority that these digital clocks, approved by FIDE, are usable at all events conducted under FIDE conditions... by which I mean that all bodies may use these unconditionally.
However, as we are in a phase where players are still getting used to these, it is reasonable to expect some forwarning, and that some instruction on there use is provided before play commences. It might even be worth issueing leaflets with some basic guidance notes to visiting teams/groups/players.
A brief explanation to explain that the quickplay finish element will be added on automatically, and don't worry about it, is all that's required. Digital clocks are able to be used in any tournament, but the MCCU has decided to bring in its own rule to over-ride that. It's entitled to do so, but stupid to do so. You don't need prior warning that a digital clock is going to be used. It's not rocket science. Just press the start button, and then press the button on the top. After one game of getting used to them, it's easy.

Andrew Wainwright
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:53 pm

Hi All

As I started off this thread, which has now gone off in several different directions, I just wanted to get back to the two points I started off the thread with, i.e. (1) NCCU lack of support for 4NCL northern league, and (2) MCF not being part of the NCCU. So here is an update:

(1) 4NCL Northern League: After speaking with Mike Truran over the last couple of weeks I con confirm that Bradford DCA Knights will be entering 2 teams in this competition. We have received sponsorship from two sources and will be fielding two strong sides, with an emphasis on providing up and coming youngsters with FIDE rated chess. Mike has confirmed to me that at this point entries look healthy and we are confident that the first season of this new competition will be a success, despite the lack of support, effort and/or action from the NCCU.

(2) On the MCF/NCCU front this thread has thrown forward a lot of suggestions/theories as to what happened all those years ago and personally I still do not have a clear picture in my head of what really did happen. But to be quite frank I dont care. What I care about is the fact that the largest city in the North of England is not part of the NCCU because of some 30 year old argument, and speaking on behalf of the next generation of chess players in this neck of the woods that is just silly! Therefore rather that just sit here and complain about it on the forum I have been taking steps to mend bridges by speaking with Mick Norris and the MCF to organise a friendly match between the MCF and the Bradford DCA (hosted by my club - Idle Chess Club) and hopefully to be attended by several officials from the YCA. If the YCA is willing to put forward an olive branch, then perhaps in time so will the NCCU!

Heres to doing something, rather than just talking about what needs to be done :-)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:57 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Just press the start button, and then press the button on the top. After one game of getting used to them, it's easy.
I've probably been exposed to them since they were first introduced in 1994. There is a major difference though in the programming of the typical x in y + z time control. The major difference is that on a "traditional" clock, you have the "adding the z" ceremony after the x moves or as soon as both players are satisfied that x moves have been made. On the digital clock, the programming is such that the z minutes are added at some random move number when the slower player first exceeds y. Personally I find it necessary to make a periodic record of clock times, so I know when past move x whether the time on the clock is "right" or not. So the clock time is "wrong" before the z has been added and "right" afterwards.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:12 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:Just press the start button, and then press the button on the top. After one game of getting used to them, it's easy.
I've probably been exposed to them since they were first introduced in 1994. There is a major difference though in the programming of the typical x in y + z time control. The major difference is that on a "traditional" clock, you have the "adding the z" ceremony after the x moves or as soon as both players are satisfied that x moves have been made. On the digital clock, the programming is such that the z minutes are added at some random move number when the slower player first exceeds y. Personally I find it necessary to make a periodic record of clock times, so I know when past move x whether the time on the clock is "right" or not. So the clock time is "wrong" before the z has been added and "right" afterwards.
Can't you tell whether or not it's right without that sort of check? In a 5-hour session, where the time control is 40 moves in 2 hours + 30 minutes finish, it's usually pretty obvious whether the clock has added on the bonus time or not. Once you've made 40 moves, you know you have half an hour more than the clock says. Easy. Particularly given most players play 30 moves in 1 hour 58 minutes, then play the last 10 moves in the last 2 minutes.

It's just something different that players aren't prepared to try to get used to. They'd rather stick with the old analogue ones, because it's what they know. Where is there sense of adventure? :D

Ian Thompson
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:A brief explanation to explain that the quickplay finish element will be added on automatically, and don't worry about it, is all that's required. ... Just press the start button, and then press the button on the top. After one game of getting used to them, it's easy.
In addition, I'd want to know:
1. How to stop the clock during the game (probably obvious, but if its a clock I'm not familiar with it might not be)
2. How to adjust the clock times during the game if there is no arbiter present
3. What all the symbols on the display mean (I've played the first few moves of a game at a Bronstein time control instead of Fischer through not knowing this)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:25 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: Can't you tell whether or not it's right without that sort of check? In a 5-hour session, where the time control is 40 moves in 2 hours + 30 minutes finish, it's usually pretty obvious whether the clock has added on the bonus time or not. Once you've made 40 moves, you know you have half an hour more than the clock says. Easy. Particularly given most players play 30 moves in 1 hour 58 minutes, then play the last 10 moves in the last 2 minutes.
The longer time controls make it a bit easier, I'd agree. I was thinking rather more about the 35 in 75 plus 15 move rates for a three hour session or the 36 in 90 plus 30 for a four hour session.

But if you're playing the 4NCL and you rattle out 40 moves in 60 minutes and the next 20 in another 20 ( OK you're a slow version of Jack), both clocks are about 2 hours wrong if your opponent has broadly matched you for time.

It's not going to apply at the British in most of the afternoon sessions, since provided the clocks are programmed the same way as at Hastings, the extra minutes will add on at moves 40 and 60.

Richard Bates
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:01 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: Can't you tell whether or not it's right without that sort of check? In a 5-hour session, where the time control is 40 moves in 2 hours + 30 minutes finish, it's usually pretty obvious whether the clock has added on the bonus time or not. Once you've made 40 moves, you know you have half an hour more than the clock says. Easy. Particularly given most players play 30 moves in 1 hour 58 minutes, then play the last 10 moves in the last 2 minutes.
The longer time controls make it a bit easier, I'd agree. I was thinking rather more about the 35 in 75 plus 15 move rates for a three hour session or the 36 in 90 plus 30 for a four hour session.

But if you're playing the 4NCL and you rattle out 40 moves in 60 minutes and the next 20 in another 20 ( OK you're a slow version of Jack), both clocks are about 2 hours wrong if your opponent has broadly matched you for time.

It's not going to apply at the British in most of the afternoon sessions, since provided the clocks are programmed the same way as at Hastings, the extra minutes will add on at moves 40 and 60.
But is the time control reached at move 40, or when the clock says it is move 40? And how do you determine if a player has lost on time in the case of a difference?

Neill Cooper
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Neill Cooper » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:18 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:The major difference is that on a "traditional" clock, you have the "adding the z" ceremony after the x moves or as soon as both players are satisfied that x moves have been made. On the digital clock, the programming is such that the z minutes are added at some random move number when the slower player first exceeds y.
You can also add time to a digital clock whenever you want or need to (e.g. illegal move with 1 minute left). On DGT 2000s you hold down the start/stop button for a few seconds until the left time starts flashing. You then adjust the times as desired and carry on with the new times. The one downside is that each time you press a button it makes a bleep, which I have not found a way to silence.
Alternatively, once time has been added the clock does show this, but I can't remember how.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:14 am

Richard Bates wrote: But is the time control reached at move 40, or when the clock says it is move 40? And how do you determine if a player has lost on time in the case of a difference?
Well, according to the rules, neither. If the time control is 40 moves in 2 hours, the time control is reached after 2 hours, not 40 moves.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:42 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:Well, according to the rules, neither. If the time control is 40 moves in 2 hours, the time control is reached after 2 hours, not 40 moves.
According to the entry form, the move rate for the "7-hour" sessions at the British will be

100 minutes for 40 moves followed by 50 minutes for 20 moves, then 15 minutes for the remaining moves with 30 seconds cumulative increment for each move starting from first move

This compares with the 4NCL rate which can be written

120 minutes for 40 moves followed by 60 minutes for 20 moves, then 30 minutes for the remaining moves with 0 seconds cumulative increment for each move starting from first move

If the clocks use the same settings as at Hastings, then the extra 50 minutes will be added to the white player's clock after his fortieth clock press and the 50 minutes to the black player's clock after his fortieth clock press.

In the 4NCL, the extra time is added at the first clock to hit zero. This might be either before or after move 40 and a flag graphic appears for a couple of minutes.

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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:20 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: In the 4NCL, the extra time is added at the first clock to hit zero. This might be either before or after move 40 and a flag graphic appears for a couple of minutes.
Which isn't a problem. An analogue clock would hit 0:00 either before or after move 40, i.e. when the flag falls. At which point, you look to see how many moves you've played on your scoresheet. This is much better, in my opinion, to having a clock that counts the presses. It has no need to; the scoresheet that you have to use records this information.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:30 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:Which isn't a problem. An analogue clock would hit 0:00 either before or after move 40,
The time limit is 40/2 and 20/1. Your scoresheet shows that you are at move 50. The analogue clock shows 5.55 on the clock face as the time. That's not a problem because you know the next time control is at 7.00, so you have 65 minutes for 10 moves.

The digital clock shows 5.00 minutes remaining. Are you quite sure there's a hidden extra hour there ?- you've not kept track of the clock times.

Mike Truran
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:36 am

Carl, this thread seems to have been thoroughly diverted from Andy's initial post. Is it possible to get it split out into its different threads?

I think Andy had some good points to make, and they are at risk of being submerged by a tidal way of extraneous matter.

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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:38 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: The time limit is 40/2 and 20/1. Your scoresheet shows that you are at move 50. The analogue clock shows 5.55 on the clock face as the time. That's not a problem because you know the next time control is at 7.00, so you have 65 minutes for 10 moves.

The digital clock shows 5.00 minutes remaining. Are you quite sure there's a hidden extra hour there ?- you've not kept track of the clock times.
This really isn't a problem. Chess players have a basic concept of time, so they probably realise subconsciously how many hours have passed since the start of their game. One hour is a long period of time, I don't know of anyone who would not be aware of its passing, and whether or not they have more time or not.

I think this is nit-picking for a problem that in reality doesn't exist.

Mike Truran
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Re: NCCU AGM Minutes 2010

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:48 am

I rest my case!

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