English Chess Forum

I have this lunch time read the NCCU minutes from their committee meeting on the 5 June 2010 (see www.nccu.org.uk). I had hoped to attend the meeting but family commitments came first.

I have to admit that I am first confused and secondly a bit disappointed on the following two matters addressed in the minutes:

1. MCA (Point 3 in the minutes) - This is the point of my confussion as it appears that the MCA have been trying to open discussions with the NCCU (to what end I am unaware). The language used in these minutes and in previous minutes on this matter are very "tense". At the risk of opening up a can of worms on a topic I know nothing about, could someone explain what the historic issue is between the NCCU and the MCA? Why is the MCA/MCF not part of the NCCU? What are the "legal documents" referenced in the minutes? If it would be prudent to send me a private message on this topic then please do so as I am keen to understand the history here if possible.

2. 4NCL Northern League (Point 13 in the minutes) - This is the source of my disappointment. I have openly supported this move by the 4NCL in the relevant other posts on this forum. I am really disappointed that the NCCU appear to be showing no positive support and/or effort to support this new competition. If the purpose of the NCCU is to support northern chess events then I would point at this matter as being a significant failure on their part to meet their objectives. I hope that the NCCU can rectify this failure.

Andrew

The Manchester Chess Federation (MCF, they get our name wrong frequently in NCCU minutes) have been trying to join the NCCU for a couple of years (as mandated unanimously at one of our AGMs) - in other words, for the Greater Manchester county teams to play in NCCU rather than MCCU competitions

Lancashire are opposed to this and the argument goes back to 1975

Our current President has met with the NCCU to try and take matters further, but has not been successful

Andrew Wainwright wrote:. At the risk of opening up a can of worms on a topic I know nothing about, could someone explain what the historic issue is between the NCCU and the MCA? Why is the MCA/MCF not part of the NCCU?

This all took place more than 30 years ago. Manchester wanted to become a county in their own right for NCCU and national competition purposes. The NCCU and Lancashire said no. Manchester took their ball away and joined the MCCU. Oddly the NCCU and Lancashire said OK when Merseyside and Cleveland also upgraded themselves from leagues to counties in the same era.

This is an outsider's view of course, there's probably been "handbags at dawn" between some of the Manchester officials and some of the Lancashire ones dating back to the 1960s if not earlier.

Andrew Wainwright wrote: At the risk of opening up a can of worms on a topic I know nothing about, could someone explain what the historic issue is between the NCCU and the MCA? Why is the MCA/MCF not part of the NCCU? What are the "legal documents" referenced in the minutes?

This is where Angels fear to tread!

If you work it out, let us know, and the Nobel Peace Prize will be in the post!!

Leave it to a lawyer to tread where an Angel will not!

It's reminds me a bit of Stella Gibbons' "Cold Comfort Farm," in which we spend the whole of the book wondering (and of course never being told) what the "something nasty in the woodshed" was that so terrified Aunt Ada Doom as a child.

Mick Norris wrote:Andrew

The Manchester Chess Federation (MCF, they get our name wrong frequently in NCCU minutes) have been trying to join the NCCU for a couple of years (as mandated unanimously at one of our AGMs) - in other words, for the Greater Manchester county teams to play in NCCU rather than MCCU competitions

Lancashire are opposed to this and the argument goes back to 1975

Our current President has met with the NCCU to try and take matters further, but has not been successful

It's always seemed strange that from Staffs we have to drive north through a northern country (Cheshire) to get to a Midland country (G Manchester). Thankfully, this is one area of chess politics I feel no urge to get involved in.

LozCooper wrote:It's always seemed strange that from Staffs we have to drive north through a northern country (Cheshire) to get to a Midland country (G Manchester).

You could always drive via Derbyshire!

It's all up north to me. Above the Watford Gap.

I have always found the MCF not being part of the NCCU really strange.

Mick/Roger - thanks for the brief history, as this all happened before I was born it makes sense now why I had no knowledge of the background circumstances leading to teh current position. I would still like to know why the MCF left the NCCU in the 1970's? Also are the current people in charge of both sides the same people who were in charge back in the 1970's? Is this a case of the same people holding a grudge for 35yrs? That may be a bit unfair as I do not know the background to the dispute and if this did end up with legal action being brought by one party against the other then it must have been a very unpleasant and stressful time for all involved.

However, having read the previous NCCU minutes it does appear that the MCF have been trying to mend bridges and rejoin the NCCU for some years now, if there are logically benefits to both sides of making this happen then surely enough time has now passed to allow both parties to come to the table and talk this through in a professional manner. Surely most of the people involved back then have moved on now, why perpetuate a feud inherited from our predecessors?

Personally I think it would be great for the other NCCU counties to have a bit more competition in the NCCU so that county matches are not so dominated by Lancs and Yorks.

The NCCU now has a new President (Rupert Jones of Yorkshire), perhaps this creates an opportunity for the MCF to reopen discussions with the NCCU? It would be great in my opinion to see a delegation from the MCF at the next NCCU meeting in Dec 2010 to properly discuss the matter and put in place a plan to make this happen if both sides agree that it is in their mutual interest and in the interest of northern chess.

Is anyone from the NCCU on the forum? Has inviting the MCF to an NCCU meeting to properly discuss matter been raised?

Andrew

Greater Manchester County Chess Association was formed in 1975 - it was never in the NCCU

Kindly, the MCCU accepted G Man and allowed us to play county chess

The people in charge of G Man and Lancs may be different, but not all the protagonists are gone

The MCF President is stepping down soon; I am standing as his successor and if elected would be happy to meet with Rupert to discuss any way to progress this

As you are a lawyer, you may find it useful to ask for copies of the legal papers discussed at the NCCU meeting (you may need to request this via Rupert) so that you can understand what happened - you can then explain it to me, as I have never seen any of the documentation

LozCooper wrote:

Mick Norris wrote:Andrew

The Manchester Chess Federation (MCF, they get our name wrong frequently in NCCU minutes) have been trying to join the NCCU for a couple of years (as mandated unanimously at one of our AGMs) - in other words, for the Greater Manchester county teams to play in NCCU rather than MCCU competitions

Lancashire are opposed to this and the argument goes back to 1975

Our current President has met with the NCCU to try and take matters further, but has not been successful

It's always seemed strange that from Staffs we have to drive north through a northern country (Cheshire) to get to a Midland country (G Manchester). Thankfully, this is one area of chess politics I feel no urge to get involved in.

We saved you the bother this year by playing on neutral territory in Holmes Chapel (which county is that in?)

Cheshire? I have to say playing Greater Manchester has always been a challenge and generally one we've come away empty handed from. Having a neutral venue does make sense albeit the venue was a bit on the cold side!

Strange playing an MCCU match in an NCCU county!

Andrew Wainwright wrote:if this did end up with legal action being brought by one party against the other then it must have been a very unpleasant and stressful time for all involved.

I tread with care and freely accept corrections if memory has failed me.

The Greater Manchester County Chess Association was forned in 1975, its birth owing something to the reorganisation of local government in 1974.

GMCCA was admitted to the BCF at Council in 1975. It would be fair to say that, in the middle of some major constitutional changes. the listing of GMCCA was not made prominent.

GMCCA had secured membership of MCCU and its admission to BCF was to the considerable dissatisfaction of NCCU who did not endorse it. GMCCA sought to represent players in parts of the traditional areas of Lancs, Cheshire & Yorks.

Certain individuals in the north west issued proceedings against BCF. More precisely, they sued me as Gen Sec, and the President, as individuals, BCF being unincorporated. Their claimed locus standi was as 'registered players' within the BCF's then Rules. I honestly forget their exact cause of action.

The case was settled out of court maybe four or five years later, both sides paying their own costs.

BCF agreed dual qualification rules for the GMCCA area.

I don't know about Cleveland, but Merseyside a little later was different because they reached an understanding with other regional chess organisations before applying to the BCF.

PB