Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:26 pm

"As an arbiter, I have banned what I deemed to be an offensive T-shirt that a player was wearing. "

This is of course a difficult area - deciding what is offensive! 12.1, 12.6 and 13.2 cover it, and I'm sure what Neil did was right, but we wouldn't necessarily want to see all the players in burqas!
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:12 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"As an arbiter, I have banned what I deemed to be an offensive T-shirt that a player was wearing. "

This is of course a difficult area - deciding what is offensive! 12.1, 12.6 and 13.2 cover it, and I'm sure what Neil did was right, but we wouldn't necessarily want to see all the players in burqas!
Actually there's a thought - would a (female) player be allowed to wear a burqa at the board?

Would the opponent be able to claim it was "distracting"??

(I realise this is a bit hypothetical, since Islamists take a dim view of chess as well as visible female flesh :? )
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

IanDavis
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by IanDavis » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:07 pm

If you were looking for cheap publicity at your tournament I'd suggest you answered Yes , otherwise No. Playing in swimwear would be more to the point there.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:11 pm

I remember back in the days of university when there was another team in our league who had a pattern of play over three year periods. They would win division 3, win division 2, create a 'b' team (under the pretence of needing somewhere for their lower players to play while their top guys were in division 1) and then find that they were not able to field a division 1 team after all and withdraw it from the league. The top guys would reappear a few weeks later back in their division 3 side and the whole cycle would begin again...

Anyway, I felt something needed to be done about this and we were scheming up all sorts of ways to strengthen the f team so that they could cheat the cheaters, and one of my prime plans was to use a division 1 player wearing a burqa and pretend that 'she' could not speak any English to keep their opponent from getting suspicious. The trouble was that we could never find a willing div 1 player, or a burqa, but other then those minor snags it was quite a good plan.

I still maintain that I will one day set myself up a team called 'The Masked Joeys', whereby we all wear masks and have to say the word 'Joey' before making every move.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

harrylamb
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by harrylamb » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:43 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:For some reason this incident reminds me of a famous dispute at Hastings about fifteen years ago, when a player insisted that he couldn't play without having a large mascot next to the board. His opponent objected that the mascot was extremely off-putting, a view upheld by the arbiter.
I remember it well. I was on the appeals committee. It was one of the more amusing disputes I have had in my career. The appeals committee upheld the arbiters decision and awarded the game to the mascot-less player. This naturally lead to a follow up dispute. Neither player had actually played a move. The mascot player claimed he should lose by default because the game had not started. His opponent claimed a win on time because the mascot player had turned up at the board and thus the game had started. You may think disputing the method of victory is a bit pedantic, but the mascot-less player got the FIDE rating points if his opponent was deemed to have turned up. If the game was a default it would not be rated. The appeals committee decided that the match had started and should thus be rated. I always felt that while this decision was harsh it was nevertheless the correct one.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:14 pm

harrylamb wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:For some reason this incident reminds me of a famous dispute at Hastings about fifteen years ago, when a player insisted that he couldn't play without having a large mascot next to the board. His opponent objected that the mascot was extremely off-putting, a view upheld by the arbiter.
I remember it well. I was on the appeals committee. It was one of the more amusing disputes I have had in my career. The appeals committee upheld the arbiters decision and awarded the game to the mascot-less player. This naturally lead to a follow up dispute. Neither player had actually played a move. The mascot player claimed he should lose by default because the game had not started. His opponent claimed a win on time because the mascot player had turned up at the board and thus the game had started. You may think disputing the method of victory is a bit pedantic, but the mascot-less player got the FIDE rating points if his opponent was deemed to have turned up. If the game was a default it would not be rated. The appeals committee decided that the match had started and should thus be rated. I always felt that while this decision was harsh it was nevertheless the correct one.
Hi Harry. Good to see you on the Forum.

I chaired the Appeal Committee. I can't remember who the third member was - can you?

My recollection is that it was only the question of whether the game should be scored 1-0 or +/- default that was the subject of the appeal. The player with the mascot didn't mind being defaulted, but he didn't like losing the rating points.

He started shouting at me when I told him the decision. I calmed him down by telling him that if he was unhappy he could ask his Federation to raise the matter with FIDE. I subsequently heard that he'd sought to do so, but that his Federation or FIDE ( I'm not sure which) had agreed with us.

Scott Freeman
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Scott Freeman » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:31 pm

Wow. I didn't realise this would create so much amusement and opinion!

The move sheet was surprisingly neat and you wouldn't have known it was written with such a large pencil - I arrived back from a meeting at my daughter's new secondary school (I am getting old - :shock: ) last Monday to see him using it, so I went across and had a look. No problem.

I was amused to hear the story of the mascot dispute at Hastings. It reminds me of a wonderful story told me by a club mate of mine, David Howes, who many years ago sat down opposite a young junior at South Norwood Chess Club by the name of Matthew Broomfield. Matthew produced his mascot robot, put it on the table next to the board and made sure its guns were pointing straight at David! :D

E Michael White
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by E Michael White » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:06 am

harrylamb wrote:Neither player had actually played a move.............. The appeals committee decided that the match had started and should thus be rated. I always felt that while this decision was harsh it was nevertheless the correct one.
This is a little odd as FIDE rules state when a game commences :-
FIDE wrote:1.1 The game of chess is played between two opponents who move their pieces alternately on a square board called a ‘chessboard’. The player with the white pieces commences the game. A player is said to ‘have the move’, when his opponent’s move has been ‘made’. (See Article 6.7)
So although the arbiter may start the round, players of the white pieces commence each game by making their first move.

Rule 1.1 also has the amusing side effect that as soon as the arbiter indicates the white clocks should be started neither side may j'adoube pieces until White makes his first move ! ...... Rule 4.2 states that only players "having the move" may j'adoube pieces and rule 1.1 states that a player "has the move" only when his opponents previous move has been made. In the start position white is not stated as "having the move" as no previous move has been made but instead white is assigned the task of commencing the game.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:47 am

E Michael White wrote:
harrylamb wrote:Neither player had actually played a move.............. The appeals committee decided that the match had started and should thus be rated. I always felt that while this decision was harsh it was nevertheless the correct one.
This is a little odd as FIDE rules state when a game commences :-
FIDE wrote:1.1 The game of chess is played between two opponents who move their pieces alternately on a square board called a ‘chessboard’. The player with the white pieces commences the game. A player is said to ‘have the move’, when his opponent’s move has been ‘made’. (See Article 6.7)
So although the arbiter may start the round, players of the white pieces commence each game by making their first move.
The player with the mascot appeared for the game, but refused to play under the conditions specified by the arbiter (namely that the mascot should be removed). That's a different situation from a player not turning up.

There are similarities to the incident where Cheparinov was disqualified for refusing to shake hands with Short at Corus Wijk aan Zee. We shall never know whether that "game" would have been rated, as the Appeal Committee decided it should be (re-)played on the rest day.

E Michael White
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by E Michael White » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:24 am

The arbiter's powers only apply during the play of the game. FIDE rules specify this on the very first line where they state :-
FIDE wrote:FIDE Laws of Chess cover over-the-board play
FIDE findings have determined when the rules apply, for example they also specify the rules apply up to the point an adjudication result is announced. Rule 13.1 specifies that arbiters must see that rules are strictly observed; this includes their own observance of the rules.

Actions which take place before the first move are not within the realm of the arbiter; they are perhaps within the realm of the tournament organiser who may have specified address code etc. in any contract or tournament entry conditions.

During football world cup months some chess arbiters sometimes seem to get carried away as if they believe they are football referees and seem more prone to yellow/red card players. Fortunately FIDE rules give players some protection as players who have finished their games become spectators so they cant be so easily carded for an over exuberant celebration.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:28 am

E Michael White wrote:The arbiter's powers only apply during the play of the game. FIDE rules specify this on the very first line where they state :-
FIDE wrote:FIDE Laws of Chess cover over-the-board play
FIDE findings have determined when the rules apply, for example they also specify the rules apply up to the point an adjudication result is announced. Rule 13.1 specifies that arbiters must see that rules are strictly observed; this includes their own observance of the rules.

Actions which take place before the first move are not within the realm of the arbiter;
So, in the game where Bronstein thought for an hour about his first move, you would say that the game did not begin until he made a move, which means, amongst other things, that he was not bound by rule 12.3a, so he could have sought advice from a third-party on what that first move should be? You would also say that the opponent was not bound by rule 12.6, so he could have distracted and annoyed Bronstein in any way he liked without penalty during that hour?

harrylamb
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by harrylamb » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:47 am

E Michael White wrote:
harrylamb wrote:Neither player had actually played a move.............. The appeals committee decided that the match had started and should thus be rated. I always felt that while this decision was harsh it was nevertheless the correct one.
This is a little odd as FIDE rules state when a game commences :-
FIDE wrote:1.1 The game of chess is played between two opponents who move their pieces alternately on a square board called a ‘chessboard’. The player with the white pieces commences the game. A player is said to ‘have the move’, when his opponent’s move has been ‘made’. (See Article 6.7)
So although the arbiter may start the round, players of the white pieces commence each game by making their first move.
Hold on. Be careful

You are jumping from a law to your interpretion the law. Yes the laws do state that “The player with the white pieces commences the game”. However they do not state that player with the white pieces starts the game by making their first move. In my opinion (interpretation) the game starts at the appointed time for the game to start. In effect when the arbiter presses the clock to start the game. And white commences the game by thinking about his first move. This is clear by rule 6.5 and rule 6.6 a, which state that

6.5 At the time determined for the start of the game the clock of the player who has the white pieces is started.
6.6 a. Any player who arrives at the chessboard after the start of the session shall lose the game. Thus the default time is 0 minutes.

So under 6.5 the game starts at the time determined for the game to start.

Under 6.6 a. If the game were to start when white plays their first move, then white could never lose the game by turning up late because by definition he cannot turn up late!
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:21 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
E Michael White wrote:The arbiter's powers only apply during the play of the game. FIDE rules specify this on the very first line where they state :-
FIDE wrote:FIDE Laws of Chess cover over-the-board play
FIDE findings have determined when the rules apply, for example they also specify the rules apply up to the point an adjudication result is announced. Rule 13.1 specifies that arbiters must see that rules are strictly observed; this includes their own observance of the rules.

Actions which take place before the first move are not within the realm of the arbiter;
So, in the game where Bronstein thought for an hour about his first move, you would say that the game did not begin until he made a move, which means, amongst other things, that he was not bound by rule 12.3a, so he could have sought advice from a third-party on what that first move should be? You would also say that the opponent was not bound by rule 12.6, so he could have distracted and annoyed Bronstein in any way he liked without penalty during that hour?
Good point, Ian.

The FIDE Laws cover over-the-board play, as opposed to correspondence chess, studies, etc. They don't say that they only cover the exact period while the game is in progress.

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Charles W. Wood
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Charles W. Wood » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:57 am

Scott you are a genius, this is the funniest thread I've read in years. I have ran 20+ tournaments in the last 4 years and every single one has a moment that makes the tournament, I even look for them now. The classics are a player moving a piece with his right hand and pressing the clock with the left, good old 'Nick' Nixon goes up and explains the error. The player ponders this, then crosses his hands moves the piece with his left and presses the clock with the right. Another was a young girl (around 6 or 7) with her fave teddy called 'Charlie' a small point of order came up which was easily sorted both players were happy, sadly the young girl pointed out that 'Charlie' wasn't happy, so the arbiter (being me) had to explain the point in detail to said teddy. I'm laughing whilst writing this.

Many many years ago my father pointed out that the more rules you have the more grey areas turn up, so after dealing with a few situations I asked Peter Purland and David Welsh how to handle these grey areas. The advice was and is priceless, you play the moment and judge the players (an area that needs careful thinking) then as seriously as possible make the decition final, THEN walk as far away as possible and laugh.

As for exploites, I've done enough, the whole Renegade Hotspur team turning up for a 3rd Division match in Bradford ALL dressed in cowboy gear including toy guns and full cowboy hats. The team was, me 97 grade, Barry Parrish 80+ grade, Tack McGrath 87 grade (the then Vice Chair of the BDCA), Sam Nicholls 140+ Grade(committee man on the British Rapidplay), Chin Lim Lee 180+ grade and then FM Iain Gourlay 200+ grade. The opposing team (Shipley B) where informed of our plans before we turned up at their venue, it was a great night. We won the match 5 - 1, no complaint was ever made or suggested.
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Scott Freeman
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Re: Writing down your move......with a giant pencil

Post by Scott Freeman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:25 pm

As a slight change to the thread from mascots and war paint, do New Zealand play in the Chess Olympiad? If they do, are they allowed to do the Haka before play starts? That could break the tension at the beginning if they were! And in the light of the views expressed in this thread, would the arbiters have the power to stop them should anyone complain? :lol:

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