NCCU and the MCF

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Mick Norris
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:36 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:Quite right Andrew Zigmond, the YCA is in support of the MCF joining the NCCU and I look forward to receiving a report from the YCA officials who attended the NCCU meeting to understand what they said and did in support the MCF's application at the last NCCU meeting.

Mick - I truely hope that this will not put the MCF off continuing with their application as there is a swell of support for the MCF that should not be allowed to evaporate. I spoke with several Lancashire captains at the NCCU stages this year when I captained the Yorkshire u180, u120 and u100 teams. All of the Lancashire officials I spoke to, with the exception of Bill, had no objection to MCF's application. Bill does an awaful lot of good work for chess in Lancashire and has done so for a long time, as a result it appears that many in Lancashire are happy to go along with what he thinks is best. I like Bill on a personal level, though I disagree with his position on this matter absolutely and hope that he will eventually see that Lancashire's continuing objection to the MCF's entry to the NCCU only continues to damage chess in the North of England.

As a Yorkshire man it is hard for me to accept but Manchester is the "biggest" city in the north, it should play its chess in the North!!!
To expand a little, there were no questions at this afternoon's MCF AGM about the NCCU application, and as such it was barely mentioned in passing, and not subject to discussion

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John Reyes
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by John Reyes » Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:37 pm

Some mention to me about why Lancashire is Blocking Manchester as it Feel like it is a Discrimination to chess players in the area who can't play chess now that something happen in 1974, during our county match vs Yorkshire.

The big questions is

1) where is this Document and why is it public?
2) Would this be cover under the Equality act 2010 as Discrimination, as i feel certain People in lancashire is blocking common sense
3) Why is Lancashire so against Manchester?
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:59 pm

I'd be very surprised if Greater Manchester had a case under the Equality Act.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Joey Stewart » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:08 am

From what I have gathered over the years is that the Lancashire/greater Manchester dispute stems from a decades old grudge that has been passed down through generations of organisers and there are probably few still alive who still feel passionate enough to continue the cycle of hatred - this is the first time in almost a decade that anyone has referenced it after all so maybe there is finally peace up north and we just don't know about it.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:16 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:08 am
From what I have gathered over the years is that the Lancashire/greater Manchester dispute stems from a decades old grudge that has been passed down through generations of organisers and there are probably few still alive who still feel passionate enough to continue the cycle of hatred - this is the first time in almost a decade that anyone has referenced it after all so maybe there is finally peace up north and we just don't know about it.
The person who was probably the principal feudmonger on the Lancashire side has died, but seemingly the feud lives on. At any rate Greater Manchester are still not allowed to join the NCCU.

The origins of the dispute were in part about eligibility to play in county matches. Perhaps the 4NCL made this seem less important.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Joey Stewart » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:03 am

One thing I am surprised at is how the BCF could have easily stamped this nonsense out by putting sanctions on Lancashire - banning their county team from the national competition and any games played in their country from being graded would have certainly made the rest of their players think hard as to whether they wanted to carry on supporting the petulant behavior of Tennant Smith and co.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:41 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:03 am
One thing I am surprised at is how the BCF could have easily stamped this nonsense out by putting sanctions on Lancashire
I believe the BCF and its officials were under threat of legal action from the Lancashire complainants, who would no doubt consider themselves blameless and demand sanctions against Greater Manchester.

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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:04 pm

Is there now the appetite to resolve this issue?
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Andrew Wainwright
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:29 pm

Stephen Westmoreland wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:04 pm
Is there now the appetite to resolve this issue?
As can be seen from the thread above, we had a go at resolving this 8 years ago. It was very disappointing to see the response from certain quarters of the NCCU at that time. Yorkshire were in favour, but it never happened. Maybe another 8yrs of ridiculous stagnation and lack of progress in the NCCU will have changed some minds?

I would certainly support this once again if Manchester were to apply to the NCCU for entry.

Is anyone from MCF planning to do this?

Paul Buswell
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Paul Buswell » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:41 am
Joey Stewart wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:03 am
One thing I am surprised at is how the BCF could have easily stamped this nonsense out by putting sanctions on Lancashire
I believe the BCF and its officials were under threat of legal action from the Lancashire complainants, who would no doubt consider themselves blameless and demand sanctions against Greater Manchester.
More than 'threat': proceedings were issued against Sandy Cordon (BCF President) and myself (General Secretary). I well remember the arrival of the process server in the BCF office.

The matter was settled out of court - not proceeded with - as part of the general settlement of the matter.

PB

Mick Norris
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:53 pm

We discussed this at MCF Council last night

The possibility of paying for legal advice was raised

We reiterate our thanks to continued support from Yorkshire
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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:10 pm

I would certainly like to be taking county teams / playing Manchester next season.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:48 pm

What would happen if say: everyone who wanted to play for Lancashire played for Lancashire, everyone who wanted to play for Manchester played for Manchester, and Lancashire counted itself relatively satisfied to still have a larger population than Merseyside, Northumberland, Cleveland, or Durham and Cumbria combined?
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:28 pm

Firstly to pick up on some of the points raised.

1, There is no possible claim under the Equality Act 2010 which prevents discrimination on the grounds of nine specific protected characteristics.

2, While I know many in the ECF have been dismayed by the attitude taken by Lancashire it would be a dangerous precedent for the ECF to be imposing any sanctions - at one time there were calls from Yorkshire players to be similarly penalised due to the separate Yorkshire grading list and that would have been equally wrong.

One of the key battles was lost by Lancashire many years ago - they wanted Greater Manchester not to be allowed as a competing county at all but, as we all know, they were simply accepted for membership by the MCCU and able to qualify for the national stages through there. Allowing direct entry to the national stages would provide another solution but it isn't the NCCU who were implacably opposed to that.

3, From an earlier thread I believe Paul Buswell said that four people were served with writs at the time; three settled but the fourth said "see you in court" and never heard anything more!
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:31 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:29 pm
Stephen Westmoreland wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:04 pm
Is there now the appetite to resolve this issue?
As can be seen from the thread above, we had a go at resolving this 8 years ago. It was very disappointing to see the response from certain quarters of the NCCU at that time. Yorkshire were in favour, but it never happened. Maybe another 8yrs of ridiculous stagnation and lack of progress in the NCCU will have changed some minds?

I would certainly support this once again if Manchester were to apply to the NCCU for entry.

Is anyone from MCF planning to do this?
What specifically happened eight years ago was that the Manchester Chess Federation applied for membership of the NCCU but this was rejected (narrowly - the vote was 3 for and 4 against with 3 abstentions). To the best of my knowledge the MCF have not sought to apply since. Perhaps in the brave new world we find ourselves in post Covid and changes in personnel within some of the NCCU counties this might be the time to reintroduce it.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

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