NCCU and the MCF

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Joey Stewart
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Joey Stewart » Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:14 pm

That brings up another excellent point, people abstaining from votes - I really don't like the idea of making the effort to join an organisation then ducking out in such a cowardly fashion and leaving the remaining voting power in the hands of an even smaller minority then it already was. I think it would be much better if in all meetings you aren't voting yes then you should automatically be lumped into the "no" camp, there are things in life where a third outcome is simply not going to happen and you need to pick a side !
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:04 am

You don't actually get higher-quality decisions by forcing people to pick a side, and interpreting failures to vote as votes for a particular side will horribly skew your decisions.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Joey Stewart » Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:14 am

Be that as it may, it is an indisputable fact that abstainers indirectly support the winning outcome of any vote they could have had a hand in by removing themselves from the process so I figure since they are still influencing the final result regardless it is better to get them involved.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:39 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:04 am
You don't actually get higher-quality decisions by forcing people to pick a side, and interpreting failures to vote as votes for a particular side will horribly skew your decisions.
I consider it my right as a semi-Yorkshireman to employ all legal methods of abstaining from a vote. Including hiding in a closet (or disconnecting from the wifi), finding a fellow abstainer to vote the opposite way, raising my left hand for one option and my right hand for the other, or taking out a 50p coin and flipping it and asking if the parties involved really, truly want to know the outcome. As a last resort, if my vote is actually going to be decisive, announce in advance that I'm going to apply Speaker Dennison's Rule: vote to create a tie, thus necessitating more debate until someone changes their mind, or vote to break a tie in favour of the status quo.
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:31 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:14 am
Be that as it may, it is an indisputable fact that abstainers indirectly support the winning outcome of any vote they could have had a hand in by removing themselves from the process
Is this the "modern maths" they teach in schools nowadays?
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:44 am

Has anybody on this forum been a school pupil recently?
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:06 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:39 am
I consider it my right as a semi-Yorkshireman to employ all legal methods of abstaining from a vote. Including hiding in a closet (or disconnecting from the wifi), finding a fellow abstainer to vote the opposite way, raising my left hand for one option and my right hand for the other, or taking out a 50p coin and flipping it and asking if the parties involved really, truly want to know the outcome. As a last resort, if my vote is actually going to be decisive, announce in advance that I'm going to apply Speaker Dennison's Rule: vote to create a tie, thus necessitating more debate until someone changes their mind, or vote to break a tie in favour of the status quo.
Is a semi-Yorkshireman someone who, when asked whether they're from Yorkshire, abstains?

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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:18 pm

Happy to vote on this.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:13 pm

I'm not sure what this "semi Yorkshireman" blather is about but when the MCF applied for membership of the NCCU in 2014 the Yorkshire delegates were instructed to vote in favour and duly did.
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Andrew Wainwright
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:46 pm

At the YCA AGM today Yorkshire voted on our position in the event that the MCF were to apply to the NCCU for membership.

In my newly appointed role as President of the YCA I am pleased to confirm that the YCA voted firmly in favour of supporting any such application and would welcome Manchester back into the NCCU.

Our NCCU delegates (Steve Westmoreland and Rupert Jones) will support any such application if a new vote is subsequently held.

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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:05 pm

That's very kind, and good news, but there's nothing to add to our application of 8 years ago

We were asked to meet with Lancs, we did, it was pointless as they had no interest in anything we had to say, nor did they try and refute anything in our application, let alone explain why we should redraw our county boundaries

So, unless the other counties wish to consider the merits of our application, there is nothing we can do in my view
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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:17 pm

What do we need to do to support you?
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Mick Norris
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:57 am

Hi Stephen, I think you would need to speak with counties other than Lancs about what they think

They might want to have another look at the application we made as we hope it answers most questions they might have
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Reg Clucas » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:15 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:46 pm
the YCA voted firmly in favour of supporting any such application and would welcome Manchester back into the NCCU.
'back' into the NCCU? Has Manchester ever been in it?

Peter Ackley
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Re: NCCU and the MCF

Post by Peter Ackley » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:02 pm

As the Yorkshire captain at the Greater Manchester-Yorkshire match I noted that Greater Manchester played a player aged under 10 and although he didn't win he did show great promise and looks to be a strong player for the future.

But of course juniors like him cannot currently play for the team they wish to represent in the future, at least in the NCCU where their team is based, because of a umpteen year old situation predating their birth which has resulted in the team not being to enter through the NCCU despite the fact that this is where Greater Manchester is.

I'm sure these juniors care a lot about this, which is so complex it requires a 22 page thread, and fully appreciate why despite the ECF recognising Greater Manchester the NCCU does not.

Can I take this opportunity to request that, should Greater Manchester apply to the NCCU again, people consider these junior players who will be coming through the chess ranks in the future, and consider - really consider - whether prolonging this situation any further into the 21st century is best for chess and the people who play chess - present and future (I have deliberately omitted "past") - before saying "no" or abstaining.

At a time where county chess is struggling surely as the incumbent generation our legacy to the game and to the generations that follow is to act in such a way that we allow as many people as possible to play as much as they want, when they want and for whom they want. Prolonging a position which has resulted in a team from being able to play in their rightful geographical union should not be a legacy anyone should want to aspire to.

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