Mobile phones and late arrivals

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Jon D'Souza-Eva

Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Jon D'Souza-Eva » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:30 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:That's a bit dopey. I discovered my phone was still on once during a game. So I went to the toilet, switched it off, and returned to my seat. If it did make a noise, there would be no one there to hear it.
Even that might not always work. Here is a story from a match a season or two ago related to me by Sean Terry:
Kelly is up against Clive Walley and playing quite well. He gets up from the table and is moving away. His phone goes off. He starts, and rushes out the door towards the toilet. The phone continues to ring. A moment passes. Our hero returns at the same speed to retrieve the phone from the coat pocket which is adorning his chair...
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:37 am

I should probably mention it in this thread as well - if someone was to come up with a mobile phone app for entering chess moves that conformed to the required standards and could interface with lots of other things (e.g. the board being used, could be plugged into the board to draw power as needed if that was a problem, and could be set up in such a way as to prevent cheating) do you think FIDE would ever, in a blue moon of Sundays, approve it?

It would also block incoming calls as well, would not play annoying tunes (except when your opponent resigned), and would not electrocute you (unlike that Soviet chess master killed by that computer). It would also tell you if you had finished in time to make your train home, but it would not replace arbiters (not yet).

Eoin Devane
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:33 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I should probably mention it in this thread as well - if someone was to come up with a mobile phone app for entering chess moves that conformed to the required standards and could interface with lots of other things (e.g. the board being used, could be plugged into the board to draw power as needed if that was a problem, and could be set up in such a way as to prevent cheating) do you think FIDE would ever, in a blue moon of Sundays, approve it?

It would also block incoming calls as well, would not play annoying tunes (except when your opponent resigned), and would not electrocute you (unlike that Soviet chess master killed by that computer). It would also tell you if you had finished in time to make your train home, but it would not replace arbiters (not yet).
The MonRoi system is, if I recall it correctly, FIDE approved. It's a stand-alone device that is basically a PDA for recording chess games (+some more fancy features). See: http://monroi.com/chess-shop.html?page= ... egory_id=1

Andy McCulloch
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Andy McCulloch » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:03 am

Yes, and it costs how much?

Which can you put in your pocket, a DGT board + pieces or a MonRoi device? (assuming these are provided by the tournament organisers)
Last edited by Andy McCulloch on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:25 am

Andy McCulloch wrote:Yes, and it costs how much?
I wasn't recommending it! :shock: I'm quite happy with my scoresheet and Fritz to put my games into my database at a later time, keeping my £300 in my pocket, thank you very much!

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:09 am

Eoin Devane wrote:
Andy McCulloch wrote:Yes, and it costs how much?
I wasn't recommending it! :shock: I'm quite happy with my scoresheet and Fritz to put my games into my database at a later time, keeping my £300 in my pocket, thank you very much!
Are you sure you wouldn't rather enter your game score during the game using a mobile phone application, and then upload it after the game is finished and have a computer analysis waiting for you when you get home? Should be less than £300 if someone exploits this niche market and FIDE allow it... 8)

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:35 am

Well I have Pocket Fritz on my phone, and that is quite capable of allowing game input and storage as PGN. Hey, I could even skip the wait that you suggest and just have it analyse the game while it's in progress ... :lol:

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:22 pm

Andy McCulloch >Which can you put in your pocket, a DGT board + pieces or a MonRoi device? (assuming these are provided by the tournament organisers)<

You must have some very strange pockets if you could contemplate putting a DGT board in your pocket. The Monroi device is a bit smaller than a blackberry. It is recognised by FIDE. After a move is made it is input with a stylus pointing to the squares. It is absolutely forbidden to record the move in advance because you can see the board. The move is then transmitted to a computer and thence to the web. It costs £200-300. FIDE accepted the assurances that in recording mode it is impossible to access other information. The reason for the high cost is the developmen expensess.
In Gibraltar we use them in addition to DGT boards in order to broadcast even more games and maximise the number of games online. We also used them once in Hastings. They have been provided for us by the company and swe pay the living costs of the staff member. They are widely used by individuals in the US who have purchased them as the culture of providing all the games online (or as used to be in a bulletin) does not exist among chess organisers.
There is another system available in Chicago which I believe David Sedgwick has seen, but I have not. But the US stupidly has not even bothered to submit their Excalibur clock for approval by FIDE. It would probably pass and open up another market.

Stewart Reuben

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:42 pm

There are obviously some issues about preventing cheating, but I rather like the idea of making game input in real-time in a digital format that can then be uploaded to a database. A DGT board is obviously a good option as it notates automatically, but it is always likely to be the most expensive as it is a large piece of kit. The Monroi is also pricey, but surely this type of software could be transferred into an App that works on a smartphone or similar device. Apps are a fast-growing market; indeed I’ve had an email today from ICC promoting their new one. Hard-wiring software into a device like the Monroi may make it easier to get FIDE approval but maybe that should just be for the elite level, with cheaper, app-based solutions for the rest of us, which is after all the high volume market.

On the cheating issue, an opponent can still cry foul if someone is clearly fiddling with their mobile device in the same way that they would spot someone perusing a chess book they had just bought from a bookstall.

The big hurdle is revisiting the mobile phone rule. Most club players I know are learning to abide by it, but still think it is pretty daft as there are far more serious distractions to players than a ring tone. It would be a shame if the imposition of this rule prevented the development of useful technologies.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:49 pm

The problem with an App-based solution is having various devices having to pass FIDE rules (i.e. only allow recording of moves)

That why having the Monroi device (which has already passed), is the best way, just think of all the development costs to get an app on Apple, Blackberry, and HTC devices

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Rob Thompson
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Rob Thompson » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:01 pm

You can forget Apple from that list - with no flash it would be incompatible with pretty much everything, as demonstrated in another thread where an Ipad user (sorry, i have forgotten who) was asking about viewing the British championship games
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:13 pm

Rob,

I was talking about development for an application to input games not viewing, so anything can be done if enough development is pursued

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:21 pm

On the Apple/Flash issue there is a lot of work going on in the publishing world to make mobile content work across multiple platforms using HTML5 rather than Flash.
Alan Walton wrote:The problem with an App-based solution is having various devices having to pass FIDE rules (i.e. only allow recording of moves)

That why having the Monroi device (which has already passed), is the best way, just think of all the development costs to get an app on Apple, Blackberry, and HTC devices
The Monroi device is not at the right price level to make it a mass market option. If I were a developer I would be looking at options for a cut-down App-based system which could be sold relatively cheaply to millions of users since there are no hardware manufacturing or distribution costs. The potential size of the market of the wider chess community is what could make the software development costs worthwhile.

You are probably right that the Monroi (and maybe competing devices in the future) are more practical if it needs FIDE approval, but then could that be restricted to FIDE-organised events rather than the FIDE rules of chess.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Kingston » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:36 pm

Writing a game input app for iPhone or Android devices is probably not too difficult for a competent programmer, but I don't think that's the main issue.

Rather, the poor old arbiters are likely to be faced with having to figure out whether a particular app on a particular phone with a particular OS meets the relevant criteria to be accepted as legal; organisers wishing to collect games are going to have to figure out how to make all of the different phone/app combinations communicate with whatever they're using to collect the games; and running the app means that the phone must be turned on during play, which means (at the very least) that the player will see incoming text message notifications. A suspicious/paranoid Bulgarian GM might even think that coded messages could be sent to the phone in some way. And let's not even consider what might happen when the phone's battery fails.

I'd also predict a rash of phone-related defaults as people turn on the phone, start the app, but forget to go into silent mode.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:54 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:running the app means that the phone must be turned on during play, which means (at the very least) that the player will see incoming text message notifications. A suspicious/paranoid Bulgarian GM might even think that coded messages could be sent to the phone in some way.
Not necessarily. My phone, as is I assume the case with most other smartphones, has a "Phone Off" mode, in which the phone disables its connection to the network and so cannot receive incoming calls / texts / e-mails. It effectively then just becomes like a PDA. I would imagine that any rule that permits the use of such apps would have to require that the phone be in such a mode for the duration of the game.

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