Mobile phones and late arrivals

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:05 pm

The MonRoi system is not totally an "open" system though is it?

I believe they have rights over both the web site and the games after they are broadcast?
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Steve Rooney
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:23 pm

Ian Kingston wrote: the poor old arbiters are likely to be faced with having to figure out whether a particular app on a particular phone with a particular OS meets the relevant criteria to be accepted as legal; organisers wishing to collect games are going to have to figure out how to make all of the different phone/app combinations communicate with whatever they're using to collect the games

There are well-established file formats used in chess software so presumably a notation App would need to conform to be able to conform to those rather than the other way round. And Eoin is right that 'flight mode' could resolve the device communication issue.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:32 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:The MonRoi system is not totally an "open" system though is it?

I believe they have rights over both the web site and the games after they are broadcast?
The website I don't know, but they certainly don't have rights over the games.

Alan Walton
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:35 pm

Do you expect arbiters to continually check all devices that they are still in flight mode during the whole session

Any device would have to be only able to store 1 game and not allow and engines or mobile capability, in a way that is what Monroi is doing now

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Kingston » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:40 pm

Steve Rooney wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote: the poor old arbiters are likely to be faced with having to figure out whether a particular app on a particular phone with a particular OS meets the relevant criteria to be accepted as legal; organisers wishing to collect games are going to have to figure out how to make all of the different phone/app combinations communicate with whatever they're using to collect the games
There are well-established file formats used in chess software so presumably a notation App would need to conform to be able to conform to those rather than the other way round. And Eoin is right that 'flight mode' could resolve the device communication issue.
The notation issue is straightforward - I was thinking more in terms of communicating the file to the organiser's computer, which would be different at every tournament. No doubt some sort of standardised protocol would eventually emerge if there was sufficient demand, but there would be problems in the interim.

Flight mode doesn't free the arbiter(s) from having to check that each and every individual device has been switched to that mode (and not surreptitiously switched back). I changed my phone a couple of days ago, and it's just taken me five minutes with Google to find how to do it on the new phone (it's called Airplane mode and yes, I'm mobile challenged).

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:54 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Any device would have to be only able to store 1 game and not allow and engines or mobile capability, in a way that is what Monroi is doing now
If that's a requirement for using mobile phones for game recording, the whole idea is a non-starter. You would have no way of knowing whether the player was really using the app that you thought they were. The app might look exactly the same as the real app, but have some extra functionality built into it to allow it to be used for cheating. You'd never be able to detect this unless you caught the player in the act of cheating.

The same, I suppose, is true of the Monroi device, but the ease with which it could be doctored is much less because it isn't designed to have extra software put on it by an end-user.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:54 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:Flight mode doesn't free the arbiter(s) from having to check that each and every individual device has been switched to that mode (and not surreptitiously switched back). I changed my phone a couple of days ago, and it's just taken me five minutes with Google to find how to do it on the new phone (it's called Airplane mode and yes, I'm mobile challenged).
Perhaps the app could have a big red / green button in the corner that obviously shows everyone whether "Aiplane Mode" is switched on.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:58 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:Any device would have to be only able to store 1 game and not allow and engines or mobile capability, in a way that is what Monroi is doing now
If that's a requirement for using mobile phones for game recording, the whole idea is a non-starter. You would have no way of knowing whether the player was really using the app that you thought they were. The app might look exactly the same as the real app, but have some extra functionality built into it to allow it to be used for cheating. You'd never be able to detect this unless you caught the player in the act of cheating.

The same, I suppose, is true of the Monroi device, but the ease with which it could be doctored is much less because it isn't designed to have extra software put on it by an end-user.
But scorebooks store more than one game, along with annotations etc. in some cases, and plenty of people use them in leagues and congresses.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:00 pm

All good ideas, now you have to goto all mobile phone desingers and explain them changing their designs specifically for the chess world, good luck.

Actually using a scorebook is also illegal, I also inform my opponent of this before we start, never had any problems with my opponents regarding this

Ian, you are correct, that it would take alot of work for somebody to improve the Monroi device, but I would expect the tournament to provide the equipment rather that individuals (equipment hired out from the ECF as a central source)

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Kingston » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:23 pm

Eoin Devane wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote:Flight mode doesn't free the arbiter(s) from having to check that each and every individual device has been switched to that mode (and not surreptitiously switched back). I changed my phone a couple of days ago, and it's just taken me five minutes with Google to find how to do it on the new phone (it's called Airplane mode and yes, I'm mobile challenged).
Perhaps the app could have a big red / green button in the corner that obviously shows everyone whether "Aiplane Mode" is switched on.
Then someone would make a hacked version that displays whatever you want it to display.

I suspect that most organisers, rather than having to deal with the problems posed by game input apps, would simply invoke Article 8.1: 'In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the "scoresheet" prescribed for the competition' to force everyone to use pen and paper.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:45 pm

Alan Walton wrote:All good ideas, now you have to goto all mobile phone desingers and explain them changing their designs specifically for the chess world, good luck.

Actually using a scorebook is also illegal, I also inform my opponent of this before we start, never had any problems with my opponents regarding this

Ian, you are correct, that it would take alot of work for somebody to improve the Monroi device, but I would expect the tournament to provide the equipment rather that individuals (equipment hired out from the ECF as a central source)
I know that scorebooks are illegal. However, in practice I see them being used all the time. What I was saying is that most players don't seem to have a problem with them, so may not necessarily object to the use of a phone app (at least not for the reason of it storing previous games).

There is no need to change anything in the design of the phones. Nothing that has been suggested could not, in principle, be implemented on all of the most popular smartphones by someone with sufficient technical competence. And when you look at the proliferation of apps available nowadays, there must be quite a number of individuals who would fall into this category.

Eoin Devane
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:50 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:
Eoin Devane wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote:Flight mode doesn't free the arbiter(s) from having to check that each and every individual device has been switched to that mode (and not surreptitiously switched back). I changed my phone a couple of days ago, and it's just taken me five minutes with Google to find how to do it on the new phone (it's called Airplane mode and yes, I'm mobile challenged).
Perhaps the app could have a big red / green button in the corner that obviously shows everyone whether "Aiplane Mode" is switched on.
Then someone would make a hacked version that displays whatever you want it to display.

I suspect that most organisers, rather than having to deal with the problems posed by game input apps, would simply invoke Article 8.1: 'In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the "scoresheet" prescribed for the competition' to force everyone to use pen and paper.
These people who are going to use the hacked version to cheat, are they currently going to the toilet between moves to check with their phones? Because that doesn't seem to be much more difficult. Basically, I'm saying that I agree there are potential ways to cheat using this, but there are plenty of ways to cheat in chess anyway as it stands. I might be naive, but I don't think there are particularly many players who are looking to exploit them.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:57 pm

I might be a young whippersnapper who apparently doesn't like old-fashioned chess stuff, and embraces things like digital clocks, quickplay finishes... But I'd rather have a scoresheet any day than an electrical device I can use to put my games in. It's probably much quicker to write the moves down than start faffing around with those devices.

Eoin Devane
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:08 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:I might be a young whippersnapper who apparently doesn't like old-fashioned chess stuff, and embraces things like digital clocks, quickplay finishes... But I'd rather have a scoresheet any day than an electrical device I can use to put my games in. It's probably much quicker to write the moves down than start faffing around with those devices.
As I said up-thread, at the moment I feel the same. I'm perfectly happy with the current arrangement, and don't see it as being in need of improvement. However, such gadgetry could be the future of chess, and I think it's certainly something worth discussing, and not something to write off immediately due to there being a couple of potential issues.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:15 pm

Eoin Devane wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:I might be a young whippersnapper who apparently doesn't like old-fashioned chess stuff, and embraces things like digital clocks, quickplay finishes... But I'd rather have a scoresheet any day than an electrical device I can use to put my games in. It's probably much quicker to write the moves down than start faffing around with those devices.
As I said up-thread, at the moment I feel the same. I'm perfectly happy with the current arrangement, and don't see it as being in need of improvement. However, such gadgetry could be the future of chess, and I think it's certainly something worth discussing, and not something to write off immediately due to there being a couple of potential issues.
I disagree that this sort of thing will be the future of chess. I don't see how purchasing this sort of thing would ever become better than a scoresheet and pen. The advantages for scoresheet and pen are:
a) Quicker to write moves down - it's only three-four characters usually.
b) Less prone to go wrong - problems with recording are usually solved with getting a new pen. Electronic devices might run out of battery power, some other defect
c) Cheaper - 10p for a biro and 2p for a scoresheet, compared to £100s for Monrois, and £100s for iStuff and apps
d) Less prone to cheating - tough to cheat recording moves with a pen and paper, but electronic devices are always suspicious

Digital clocks and quickplay finishes both solve problems, specifically they keep time more accurately without arbiter interference to wind them back, and can finish the game without being able to get help from other people. I don't see how these electrical devices are solving anything though. I can't think of a single advantage of using them during the game over a pen and paper.

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