Mobile phones and late arrivals

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Eoin Devane
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Eoin Devane » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:39 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Some fascinating comments here. Pity we can't hop in a time machine and see how things will turn out in 20-30 years time (well, some of us will get there the slow way). I wonder what other technological advances (not going quite as far as Stewart did with inbuilt computers) will change chess?
I like the suggestion of heat-sensitive pieces mentioned in another thread.

We could build arbiter robots, with the FIDE rules programmed into them. They could also have a cannon built in - I presume with the way FIDE are going with the rules they will impose the death penalty soon enough. :roll:

Seriously though, you've converted me. I now think that within the timeframe you mention, a lot of chess recording will be done on smartphones or similar devices.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:51 am

Christopher Kreuzer asks about technological changes in chess. Here is a note I received recently:

'By the way, you once mentioned to me about some suitable opponent for practicing inter island chess. This idea kind of died out as FIDE did not show any interest. Now, we are prepared to try to do something ourselves, I hope. Do you still have a suitable opponent to recommend? Would you be available to be the controller/arbiter at the other side?'
Best wishes, Jan Berglund, FIDE Delegate, Palau Chess Federation

My idea is that playing international chess is prohibitively expensive for poorer, out of the way, federations. Why not play internationally rated chess on the internet? FIDE have allowed just one experiment on this, the South African Open where three players competed from Australia. Of course there are problems, particularly about cheating. There should be a trusted arbiter at each place where play takes place. I first proposed this initiative to Jan in 1993. We haven't made much progress! But poker is played online all the time for very large sums of money. Pokerbots are made more difficult to use because the company burrows into your computer and spies on you. Of course cheating using Fritz is easier and more valuable, but webcams might help a bit.

Stewart Reuben

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:22 pm

The British Go Association League is played almost exclusively online: http://league.britgo.org/aboutus.php

Accusations of cheating are far less likely though - computers are still poor at it compared to the leading humans.

Alexander Hardwick
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alexander Hardwick » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:39 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:The British Go Association League is played almost exclusively online: http://league.britgo.org/aboutus.php

Accusations of cheating are far less likely though - computers are still poor at it compared to the leading humans.
For most of the 20th Century, it was the same with chess computers. So perhaps the Go situation may change as computer technology improves?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:30 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:Why not play internationally rated chess on the internet? FIDE have allowed just one experiment on this, the South African Open where three players competed from Australia. Of course there are problems, particularly about cheating. There should be a trusted arbiter at each place where play takes place. I first proposed this initiative to Jan in 1993. We haven't made much progress!
The US Chess League (http://www.uschessleague.com/) has done this successfully for several years. Technically, its possible. It would be interesting to know what the players think of this form of chess. I've only ever played one match by telephone. It wasn't a pleasant experience. I imagine this would be similar - the absence of an opponent sitting in front of you makes a difference. I'd try it once via the internet to find out though. I just suspect I wouldn't want to do it more than once.

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:45 pm

Alexander Hardwick wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:The British Go Association League is played almost exclusively online: http://league.britgo.org/aboutus.php

Accusations of cheating are far less likely though - computers are still poor at it compared to the leading humans.
For most of the 20th Century, it was the same with chess computers. So perhaps the Go situation may change as computer technology improves?
Perhaps, but at the moment, Go remains an example of the limitations of computer technology (according to my Computer-Science-studying friends).

David Sedgwick
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:10 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Stewart Reuben wrote:Why not play internationally rated chess on the internet? FIDE have allowed just one experiment on this, the South African Open where three players competed from Australia. Of course there are problems, particularly about cheating. There should be a trusted arbiter at each place where play takes place. I first proposed this initiative to Jan in 1993. We haven't made much progress!
The US Chess League (http://www.uschessleague.com/) has done this successfully for several years. Technically, its possible. It would be interesting to know what the players think of this form of chess. I've only ever played one match by telephone. It wasn't a pleasant experience. I imagine this would be similar - the absence of an opponent sitting in front of you makes a difference. I'd try it once via the internet to find out though. I just suspect I wouldn't want to do it more than once.
I too did not much enjoy my one and only telephone match.

However, I think that a significant part of the problem with old style telephone matches was the time spent in transmission. You had to make your moves at a faster than usual time limit and hang around for an age seemingly waiting for your opponent to move - of course he wasn't actually on move for more than about half the time at the most.

I presume that internet chess isn't so bad in that respect. Like you, I'd be prepared to try it once.

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Rob Thompson
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Rob Thompson » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:44 am

I'd love to try a match played by internet, and i suspect that if they became popular it may well entice more juniors into the game, us being the (stereotypically) more computer literate. Now, i am aware that that isn't true in all cases, but from looking at the internet chess sites that i'm on atm, there seem to be far more juniors and young adults there than i see in "over the board" chess.
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Stewart Reuben
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:09 pm

Rob Thompson >I'd love to try a match played by internet, and i suspect that if they became popular it may well entice more juniors into the game, us being the (stereotypically) more computer literate. Now, i am aware that that isn't true in all cases, but from looking at the internet chess sites that i'm on atm, there seem to be far more juniors and young adults there than i see in "over the board" chess.<

I am not sure I understand this comment. Players are able to play games or matches against the same opponent on the internet very readily. Do you mean a team match? They have a whole league in the US. A team match, possibly in the National Club Championships would be quite easy to arrange, though probably not as pleasant for older players as an over-the-board match.
The problem is for a FIDE Rated event. they have to be played according to The Laws of Chess which clearly state they are solely for over-the-board play.

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Ian Thompson
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:43 pm

Rob Thompson wrote:I'd love to try a match played by internet, and i suspect that if they became popular it may well entice more juniors into the game, us being the (stereotypically) more computer literate. Now, i am aware that that isn't true in all cases, but from looking at the internet chess sites that i'm on atm, there seem to be far more juniors and young adults there than i see in "over the board" chess.
Why not try this out in the National Schools Championship - a non-geographical 1st round section where games are to be played online? I imagine most schools would have the computer facilities to do this already, and teachers on-hand to ensure there was no cheating.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:49 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Rob Thompson wrote:I'd love to try a match played by internet, and i suspect that if they became popular it may well entice more juniors into the game, us being the (stereotypically) more computer literate. Now, i am aware that that isn't true in all cases, but from looking at the internet chess sites that i'm on atm, there seem to be far more juniors and young adults there than i see in "over the board" chess.
Why not try this out in the National Schools Championship - a non-geographical 1st round section where games are to be played online? I imagine most schools would have the computer facilities to do this already, and teachers on-hand to ensure there was no cheating.
What's the online equivalent of knocking over the chess pieces when you are losing? Disconnecting? In all seriousness, how do online events deal with disconnections? And what sort of facilities are used by players of this US league? I'm imagining all the players grouped around computers in a chess club, which doesn't seem to translate well to the club scene here. Do the players in this US league play through computers at their homes, or at schools and universities?

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:40 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: What's the online equivalent of knocking over the chess pieces when you are losing? Disconnecting? In all seriousness, how do online events deal with disconnections?
Chess.com handles disconnections well, in my opinion. If you disconnect, you can reconnect if you like. All you lose is time.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:43 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:In all seriousness, how do online events deal with disconnections? And what sort of facilities are used by players of this US league? I'm imagining all the players grouped around computers in a chess club, which doesn't seem to translate well to the club scene here. Do the players in this US league play through computers at their homes, or at schools and universities?
You'd have to read the rules on disconnections, and other internet-only things, such as move transmission errors (which seem a bit over the top to me). The teams members definitely all play in the same place, with an on-site arbiter at each team's venue, and a third off-site arbiter. Each team's venue is required to be a public venue which spectators can attend. Teams are supposed to encourage spectators to come.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:14 pm

[Re: Online US chess league]
Ian Thompson wrote: Each team's venue is required to be a public venue which spectators can attend. Teams are supposed to encourage spectators to come.
Goodness. Spectators! :shock:

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Re: Mobile phones and late arrivals

Post by IanDavis » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:20 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:The British Go Association League is played almost exclusively online: http://league.britgo.org/aboutus.php

Accusations of cheating are far less likely though - computers are still poor at it compared to the leading humans.
It's worth pointing out that online games are not accepted for rating purposes in Go because of the problem of cheating, and for a lot of players, a computer will play stronger than they can. In short, this League just assumes that there will be no cheating.

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