English Chess Forum

The clock is simply following the laws of chess; they state that you're not supposed to wind the clock back (assuming analogue) until the flag has fallen. So I doubt there's a way for it to do it automatically.

Ernie Lazenby wrote:Rate of play 36 moves in 1 hour 30 minutes then 15 minutes to finish the game. This is a user setting not a default setting.

Question: Currently the clock is set so that provided the 36 moves have been made it keeps counting down until the primary phase time elapses on one of the clocks then it adds the 15 minutes secondary time phase to both clocks. It does not add the 15 minutes as soon as the 36 moves has been made? Is there any other way to set it to cater for the time control given above?
Tick tock clocks are a lot simplier or is that me displaying my age!

I don't know the answer to your question, but I would question whether it is a good idea to do so even if it is possible. The problem with using a clock's move counter is that you then rely on each player stopping their clock once per move, every move. Obviously, if they don't, it will add the extra 15 minutes on at the wrong point in the game. Players forget to stop their clock sometimes. Occasionally, they stop their clock when they shouldn't.

Ernie Lazenby wrote:It does not add the 15 minutes as soon as the 36 moves has been made? Is there any other way to set it to cater for the time control given above?

Provided that the clock supports 40 moves in 90 minutes plus 30 minutes at move 40, all with an extra 30 seconds, then you program 36 moves in 90 minutes plus 15 minutes at move 36 with an extra zero seconds. In other words you use the increment mode with zero increment. Arbiters don't like this setting, so you won't see it in congresses. Their (and perhaps your problem) with it is that it will tip off players when 36 clock pushes have been made.

Alex Holowczak wrote:The clock is simply following the laws of chess; they state that you're not supposed to wind the clock back (assuming analogue) until the flag has fallen.

It's odd though that
(a) quickplay finishes were virtually invented in the UK and always worked on the basis of adding time at a move number
and
(b) that the laws of chess were mostly drafted by British arbiters
to find that the long standing British approach is alleged to be illegal.

Is it not more down to the fact that "official" brand of clock is Dutch and the Dutch seemed to prefer the add time on expiry approach - so the default setting on the clocks is expiry.

Roger de Coverly wrote: It's odd though that
(a) quickplay finishes were virtually invented in the UK and always worked on the basis of adding time at a move number
and
(b) that the laws of chess were mostly drafted by British arbiters
to find that the long standing British approach is alleged to be illegal.

Is it not more down to the fact that "official" brand of clock is Dutch and the Dutch seemed to prefer the add time on expiry approach - so the default setting on the clocks is expiry.

It might be odd but Alex is right. The only time that the laws say you add on extra time for the next session is when a flag has fallen. There is no mention of doing it at move x whatsoever, irrespective of whether you're using a digital or analogue clock.

Why they were written that way is a completely different question!

Roger,

How would you know when to add on time? Surely if you did that automatically, you would be
a) presuming that the clock had not been started and stopped incorrectly at any time
b) giving an external indication to the players who might not have been scoring that they had in fact reached the time control

Regards,
Paul McKeown

The relevant rules in the Laws if anyone cares:

6.2a. When using a chess clock, each player must make a minimum number of moves or all moves in an allotted period of time and/or may be allocated an additional amount of time with each move. All these must be specified in advance.

...

6.3. Immediately after a flag falls, the requirements of article 6.2 a. must be checked.

Alex Holowczak wrote: ...

6.3. Immediately after a flag falls, the requirements of article 6.2 a. must be checked.

With a 30 second increment, time is added at the move number. If you use a digital clock without increment, and add time at the move number, the flag hasn't fallen so you could argue that 6.3 is irrelevant.

Does it say that the flag has to fall every hour ? - It does on an analogue clock but not on a digital

Paul McKeown wrote:How would you know when to add on time? Surely if you did that automatically, you would be
a) presuming that the clock had not been started and stopped incorrectly at any time
b) giving an external indication to the players who might not have been scoring that they had in fact reached the time
control

(a) is the standard presumption when using 40/100 20/50 with 30 second increment. It also applies on 40/90 + 30 with 30 second increment.
(b) is also true of course which is why arbiters don't like it.

There is justified difference between the 30 second treatment and the zero second treatment in that you should always know the number of moves under a 30 second increment. You've got problems if you try to have an intermediate time control with a five or ten second increment because the obligation to score is removed.

I wonder how the Dutch handle it - the Sadler tournament being discussed elsewhere has this to say (in a Google translation)

Play Tempo
Forty moves in 105 minutes per person according to FIDE rules, followed by 10 minutes plus 5 seconds per move per person for the party to end.

It doesn't say whether the 5 seconds starts from move 0 or move 40. If they follow the add time at expiry convention, then you would have the party-ending horror of having to run your time to zero whilst playing at 5 seconds a move. If they use the move number convention, then the clock tells you when you've reached 40.

Roger de Coverly wrote: (a) is the standard presumption when using 40/100 20/50 with 30 second increment. It also applies on 40/90 + 30 with 30 second increment.

Actually, the default setting on a DGT clock of 40/90 + 30 with 30 second increment adds the 30 minutes to both sides only when one flag has fallen. It was the time control (and setting) used at the Uxbridge Masters. It seemed to cause no problems for anyone at all.

Sean Hewitt wrote: Actually, the default setting on a DGT clock of 40/90 + 30 with 30 second increment adds the 30 minutes to both sides only when one flag has fallen.

Most broadcast international events using that rate seem to switch the move counter on and add the time at move 40.

The old "ECF" 40 moves in 80 minutes + 20 minutes with 1 minute increments always added at the move count.

Sean Hewitt wrote: It was the time control (and setting) used at the Uxbridge Masters. It seemed to cause no problems for anyone at all.

As you may have gathered, I hate it when the clock doesn't show me how much time remains. It's basically because I then have to keep track of the clock times on the scoresheet. How else do you know, when past move 40 whether to speed up when the clock shows two minutes?

Roger de Coverly wrote:How else do you know, when past move 40 whether to speed up when the clock shows two minutes?

By looking at your scoresheet when you get to move 40 and looking at the time remaining. If greater than 0:00, you've made the time control. Problem solved.

Alex Holowczak wrote:By looking at your scoresheet when you get to move 40 and looking at the time remaining. If greater than 0:00, you've made the time control. Problem solved.

You know you have made the move 40 . That's not the issue. The point is that additional time will be added when either you or your opponent reaches zero on the clock and that can be at any move number exceeding 40 . Particularly if it's your opponent who runs out of time first, you can be deep in thought when the extra time is added and not really notice. 15 minute add-ons are a particular danger. As a defence against this, I record clock times periodically.

But why is too much to ask, particularly with increment times, that the clock shows exactly how much time remains either for the next move or for the rest of the game?

Roger de Coverly wrote: But why is too much to ask, particularly with increment times, that the clock shows exactly how much time remains either for the next move or for the rest of the game?

Because that would be contrary to the Laws of Chess. The Laws are written at the moment so that the sole judge of the number of moves is the scoresheet, not the clock. Whenever there's a dispute about the number of moves made at a time control, the arbiter should consult the scoresheets. The number of moves the clock says has been made isn't a factor.

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Because that would be contrary to the Laws of Chess. The Laws are written at the moment so that the sole judge of the number of moves is the scoresheet, not the clock. Whenever there's a dispute about the number of moves made at a time control, the arbiter should consult the scoresheets. The number of moves the clock says has been made isn't a factor.

Arbiters are anti technology of course - because they are undermined if players can just consult the clocks to determine how many moves have been played. The law of chess that says it's a draw if both flags are down is total nonsense with a digital clock because the clock knows which flag went first.

Roger de Coverly wrote:The law of chess that says it's a draw if both flags are down is total nonsense with a digital clock because the clock knows which flag went first.

The exact law in question:

The FIDE Laws of Chess wrote: 6.11: If both flags have fallen and it is impossible to establish which flag fell first then:

a. the game shall continue if it happens in any period of the game except the last period

b. the game is drawn if it happens in the period of a game in which all remaining moves must be completed.

(Emphasis, and removal of an extraneous comma in b, mine.)

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Because that would be contrary to the Laws of Chess. The Laws are written at the moment so that the sole judge of the number of moves is the scoresheet, not the clock.

To repeat my point. The scoresheet shows we are at move 50 so move 40 is not an issue. If the move rate is 40 moves in 90 minutes followed by an extra 30 minutes with or without an extra 30 seconds per move, then why should the clock not inform me that there are 32 minutes remaining rather than 2?