Has anyone ever given up chess?

[Simon Brown]

Michael Rahal. I've never met or seen him either. I recall seeing him arrive on the rating list and assuming it was someone who changed their name!

[Richard Bates]

If I just base the list on current top 100 ENG active players, this is what it looks like.

B-Year
 1947  Whiteley, Andrew J  m
 1948  Carleton, John J  
 1951  Berry, Stephen H  f
 1951  Stebbings, Anthony J  
 1952  Povah, Nigel E  m
 1952  Beaumont, Chris R  m
 1952  Bellin, Robert  m
 1956  Littlewood, Paul E  m
 1956  Crouch, Colin S  m
 1956  Speelman, Jon S  g
 1957  Martin, Andrew D  m
 1957  Kenworthy, Gary  f
 1957  Mestel, A Jonathan  g
 1958  Taulbut, Shaun M  m
 1958  Knott, Simon J B  m
 1958  Baker, Chris W  m
 1958  Hebden, Mark L  g
 1959  Sowray, Peter J  f
 1959  Flear, Glenn C  g
 1960  Lewis, Andrew P  f
 1960  Pein, Malcolm  m
 1960  Plaskett, H James  g
 1960  Brown, Simon D  f
 1961  McMichael, Richard J  c
 1961  Teichmann, Erik O M C  f
 1961  Arkell, Keith C  g
 1962  Cox, John J  m
 1962  Rose, Matthew  
 1963  Crawley, Gavin  m
 1963  Wiley, Tom E  f
 1963  King, Daniel J  g
 1964  Richardson, John R  f
 1964  Dickenson, Neil F  f
 1965  Lalic, Susan K  m
 1965  Short, Nigel D  g
 1965  Wells, Peter K  g
 1966  Thomas, Nicholas  f
 1967  Emms, John M  g
 1967  McDonald, Neil  g
 1967  Eames, Robert S  f
 1967  Conquest, Stuart C  g
 1968  Ward, Chris G  g
 1969  Ledger, Andrew J  m
 1969  Summerscale, Aaron P  g
 1970  Tozer, Richard J D  m
 1970  Webb, Laurence E  f
 1970  Rahal, Michael A  m
 1970  Hennigan, Michael T  m
 1970  Quillan, Gary  m
 1970  Duncan, Chris R  f
 1971  Adams, Michael  g
 1971  Piper, Matthew S  
 1971  Buckley, Graeme N  m
 1972  Rogers, Jonathan W  f
 1972  Collinson, Adam R  f
 1973  Hague, Ben  f
 1975  Ansell, Simon T  m
 1975  Turner, Matthew J  g
 1976  Devereaux, Maxim L  m
 1976  Parker, Jonathan F  g
 1976  Gormally, Daniel W  g
 1977  Hinks-Edwards, Thomas R J  f
 1977  Ciuksyte, Dagne  m
 1977  Savage, Ben D M  f
 1977  Ferguson, Mark  m
 1978  Vigus, James E  f
 1978  Bisby, Daniel L  f
 1978  Cobb, Charles A  m
 1978  Hunt, Harriet V  m
 1979  Greet, Andrew N  m
 1979  Williams, Simon K  g
 1979  Bates, Richard A  m
 1979  Moskovic, David M  f
 1980  Mah, Karl C C  m
 1980  Alfred, Nathan S W  f
 1980  Houska, Jovanka  m
 1980  Hunt, Adam C  m
 1980  Ashton, Adam G  f
 1981  Pert, Richard G  m
 1981  Pert, Nicholas  g
 1981  Palliser, Richard J D  m
 1981  Haslinger, Stewart G  g
 1982  Bigg, Andrew J  c
 1983  Broomfield, Matthew P  f
 1983  Hawkins, Jonathan  m
 1984  Hanley, Craig A  m
 1984  D`Costa, Lorin A R  m
 1984  McShane, Luke J  g
 1985  Buckley, Simon T  
 1986  Trent, Lawrence  m
 1986  Martyn, Rafe  f
 1986  Gordon, Stephen J  g
 1986  Rendle, Thomas E  m
 1987  Jones, Gawain C B  g
 1987  Eggleston, David J  f
 1988  Constantinou, Peter  f
 1989  Poobalasingam, Peter S  f
 1989  Roberson, Peter T  
 1990  Howell, David W L  g
 1994  Zhou, Yang-Fan  f

(edit) 1970 Agnos added
(edit) top 8 Welsh added

My word aren't we all getting old...

I even drew with someone close to 1/3 of my age today.

[Alex Holowczak]

My word aren't we all getting old...

I even drew with someone close to 1/3 of my age today.

Just blame the time control.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Using the FIDE list including inactive players, the list of grandmasters by year of birth looks something like this:-

1969 Summerscale
1971 Adams
1977 Rowson

That is a great list! I've snipped most of it, but there were three things I noticed:

(1) Summerscale is older than I realised (I had thought he was younger than Adams)
(2) Adams is younger than I realised (seems to have been around forever)
(3) The number of GMs drops off markedly after Rowson in 1977

In the 23 years from 1955 to 1977, there are only four years that produced no GMs. In the 13 years from 1978 to 1990, there are 7 years with no GMs. Of course, there may be people born in that period who are still working their way towards the GM title. A useful bit of data to add is the year (and age) each person on this list gained the GM title. Some people achieved the GM title in their teens, some in their 20s and maybe even some in their 30s. Would it be possible to add this data for the GMs at least? If someone can point out where the information is most easily found, I might try and add this data, though I'm thinking someone must have done this already.

[Richard Bates]

My word aren't we all getting old...

I even drew with someone close to 1/3 of my age today.

Just blame the time control.

Increasingly it's my opponents who have to provide the excuses in drawn games. Both of my opponents on Sunday (average 13 and a bit) accepted my draw offer, and then said "I would have played on, but..."

[Simon Ansell]

It's an interesting list, but I'm not sure the number of GMs is necessarily directly related to the strength of junior chess during a particular period, which is how the discussion started.

There is much less incentive now (and perhaps has been for the last 20 years) for players to spend a lot of time and effort completing the GM title, because it's much harder to make a living from chess as an 'ordinary' GM than it was up to the early 90s.

[Alan Walton]

Richard, does being 30 feel like you are getting old, for me it is a new lease of life

[Roger de Coverly]

Some people achieved the GM title in their teens, some in their 20s and maybe even some in their 30s. Would it be possible to add this data for the GMs at least? If someone can point out where the information is most easily found, I might try and add this data, though I'm thinking someone must have done this already.

FIDE now record this. For example http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400211


These days GMs usually establish their title no later than their twenties. Relatively mature recent IMs would include Jack R and Max D. Here and there players have taken advantage of a relaxation of the FIDE rules on norms. These are now for life, this enabled Horner and Beaumont to gain IM titles.

[Keith Arkell]

Jonathan,stewart,Simon - I found this:

[Event "Lloyds Bank Masters"]
[Date "1993.08.24"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Rahal, M."]
[Black "Arkell, Keith"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B12"]
[WhiteElo "2310"]
[BlackElo "2475"

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Nbd2 e6 7. Be2 Nge7 8. O-O
cxd4 9. cxd4 Nf5 10. h3 Bxf3 11. Nxf3 Be7 12. Be3 O-O 13. a3 Nxe3 14. fxe3 f5
15. exf6 Bxf6 16. b4 Qd6 17. Rc1 a5 18. b5 Ne7 19. Qd3 Nf5 20. Rfe1 Be7 21. e4
dxe4 22. Qxe4 Bf6 23. Bc4 Nxd4 24. Nxd4 Qxd4+ 25. Qxd4 Bxd4+ 26. Kh1 Kh8 27.
Bxe6 Bb2 28. Rc7 b6 29. a4 $11 Rae8 30. Rc2 Bd4 31. Rce2 g6 32. Kh2 Bc5 33. Bd5
Rxe2 34. Rxe2 Rf1 35. g4 Rd1 36. Bc4 Rc1 37. Re4 Rc2+ 38. Be2 g5 39. Kg2 Kg7
40. Kf3 Rc3+ 41. Kg2 Kf6 42. Bc4 Ra3 43. Bd5 Kg7 44. Bb7 Ra2+ 45. Kh1 Rd2 46.
Bc6 Kf6 47. Bb7 h6 48. Bc8 Bd6 49. Bf5 Be5 50. Rc4 Bd4 51. Rc2 Rd1+ 52. Kg2 Ra1
53. Re2 Rxa4 54. Re6+ Kf7 55. Rxh6 Rb4 56. h4 gxh4 57. Rxh4 a4 58. g5 a3 59.
Re4 Rb2+ 60. Kh1 Bg7 61. Be6+ Kg6 62. Ra4 Bf8 63. Ra8 Bc5 64. Rg8+ Kh5 65. g6
Kh6 66. g7 Kh7 67. Bc4 Rd2 68. Bb3 Rb2 69. Bc4 Rb4 70. Be6 Rxb5 71. Kg2 Ra5 72.
Ba2 Ra4 73. Kf1 Bd4 74. Re8 Kxg7 75. Ke1 Rb4 76. Kd1 Kf6 77. Ra8 Bc5 78. Re8
Kf5 79. Re2 Kf4 80. Rc2 Ke5 81. Re2+ Kd6 82. Re6+ Kc7 83. Re2 b5 84. Re6 Rh4
85. Re5 Kb6 86. Rd5 Bd4 87. Kc2 Ka5 88. Kb3 Bf6 89. Rd2 Rh3+ 90. Kc2 Rc3+ 91.
Kb1 Ka4 92. Bf7 Re3 93. Rd1 Re2 94. Rd6 Rb2+ 95. Kc1 Bg5+ 96. Kd1 Ka5 97. Rd3
Kb4 98. Rg3 Rd2+ 99. Ke1 a2 100. Bxa2 Rxa2 101. Rxg5 Rc2 102. Kd1 Rc8 103. Rg2
Kb3 104. Rg3+ Ka4 105. Kd2 b4 106. Rh3 b3 107. Rh7 b2 108. Rb7 Ka3 109. Ra7+
Kb3 110. Rb7+ Ka2 111. Ra7+ Kb1 112. Ra6 Rd8+ 113. Kc3 Kc1 0-1

Question: was my 34 the oldest age at which any on the list became a GM?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I would also add 1964 Wells, Ian who would certainly have reached at least IM strength had he lived.

This name rung a bell (I'd read about him in another thread), and it was this one from January 2009 (a tragic story):

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=609

Also mentioned here:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 02&start=6

That is a post by John Upham (also from January 2009), and the following post (by Leonard) says: "in photo 12 the bottom pic is not from 1977 or at the YMCA but is Korchnoi's simul against London juniors at Starcross School, Islington, in January 1976. Korchnoi is making a move against Julian Hodgson, with Nigel Short behind and Ian Wells just visible behind Short."

John, are those photos still available? The link doesn't work for me.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Some people achieved the GM title in their teens, some in their 20s and maybe even some in their 30s. Would it be possible to add this data for the GMs at least? If someone can point out where the information is most easily found, I might try and add this data, though I'm thinking someone must have done this already.

FIDE now record this. For example http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400211


These days GMs usually establish their title no later than their twenties. Relatively mature recent IMs would include Jack R and Max D. Here and there players have taken advantage of a relaxation of the FIDE rules on norms. These are now for life, this enabled Horner and Beaumont to gain IM titles.

Thanks - I had been looking at the wrong part of the screen! I will look this up for the GMs and see if I can answer Keith Arkell's question! Though I was right that someone has done this before, see this thread:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 32&start=0

That is from January 2009 (was that a particularly good month or something??) and Paul McKeown comes up with an excellent list (and there are some great biographical posts by Leonard Barden as well). Paul's latest version of his list seems to be here:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=40

What is needed is to merge the two lists in some way (Paul's list and Roger's list earlier in this thread), including for all the players the birth and death dates (where known), and detailed biographical information pertaining to the norms gained (when and where) and when the last norm was obtained (for those that obtained titles via norms), the ratings at the time of obtaining the norms, when the rating criterion was reached (if needed) and when the title was ratified, and the age when these milestones were reached.

Essentially, this would be a history of norms and titles achieved by all British players. It should be possible to do given the resources available online, both elsewhere and here on these forums.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Question: was my 34 the oldest age at which any on the list became a GM?

I think John Shaw (Scottish GM) may hold several records in that respect (if you restrict this to titles obtained in the modern era by norms and rating, not by other means).

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2400553

Born 1968, FIDE Master in 1994 (aged 25-26), International Master in 1999 (aged 30-31), International Grandmaster in 2006 (aged 37-38). To get the exact age, you would need his birth date and the date of the FIDE Congress at which the titles were ratified. Compare this to the age of the youngest-ever GMs!

Possibly others were older, but that is one I remember being flagged up at the time as a relatively rare example of someone in their late 30s getting the GM title. Colin McNab was also in his thirties (30-31) when he got the GM title:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2400030

[EDIT: removed one - incorrect calculation]

Motwani may have been 29 or 30 (can't tell):

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2400022

Aagaard was 33-34:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=1401815

(PS. Paul, on your list, Aagaard is spelt Agaard, which doesn't work when searching FIDE's rating website)

Hebden was also 33-34:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400084

Davies was 32-33:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=404420

For completeness, Arkell was 33-34:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400270

[EDIT: Keith said above he was 34]

And Kosten's year of title is not given, but his birth year is 1958:

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400114

[EDIT: Wikipedia says the title year was 1990, making Kosten 31-32, but naturalized and registered as French]

There are also quite a few from Paul's list whose title year (according to FIDE) places them in their late 20s (by which I mean 28-29). Hopefully someone will work this out for the whole list at some point, which would allow a graph of distribution by age to be done (in theory, you can do this for the entire FIDE list of GMs, and I'm almost certain someone has done this already for all GMs ever, but I don't think it has been done for British GMs).

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Just Googled the oldest-ever GMs and of course the issue is clouded by honorary titles and backdating to results achieved decades earlier (e.g. Soviet players not allowed to obtain the title earlier). What people normally mean by "oldest to achieve the GM title" is those that show an increase in their chess strength (or results at least) in their late 30s or early 40s, an increase sufficient to take them from IM strength to GM strength.

Anyway, two of the links I found were the following:

http://www.chesscircle.net/forums/showt ... ster-title

http://faroffchess.blogspot.com/2008/12 ... title.html

Names mentioned there include:

Janis Klovans (63)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=11600128

Vladislav Vorotnikov (58)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=4103009

Leif Øgaard (55)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=1500074

Juraj Nikolac (47)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14500140

Others mentioned but not on the FIDE rating website (you would need to look at archived versions of the rating lists for these players, as they are no longer active in any sense of the word): Stein, Dake, Koltonowski.

Better analysis is here:

http://www.mychessblog.com/chess-trivia ... rs-reveal/

That gives the oldest and youngest at the time that was written in June 2009 (Enrico Paoli, 88; and Sergey Karjakin, 12).

It also has that graph of GMs by age of obtaining title that I mentioned (Section E "What is the most likely age for becoming a GM?"). Using figures for June 2009 and excluding the inaugural GMs, a figure of 1238 is broken down into 233 obtaining the GM title in their teens, 606 in their 20s, 293 in their 30s, 62 in their 40s, and 44 after the age of 50. It shouldn't be too difficult to go through the 106 GMs who obtained their title after the age of 40 and see which are honorary or 'single result' and which were obtained by norms.

That is only currently living GMs though. A fuller analysis would have to include now-dead GMs that you can't get the data for from the FIDE website (at least not as far as I can tell). That would indicate whether the "distribution" of GMs by age the title was obtained has been changing over the years (I suspect it has been extending in both directions, into the teens and into the 30s).

[Alan Kennedy]

In order to inject some humour into this thread - some at my club suggest I gave up playing chess of any quality some time ago!

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

In order to inject some humour into this thread - some at my club suggest I gave up playing chess of any quality some time ago!

Perhaps it's time to give up chess when your own children can beat you...