Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

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Ian Thompson
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:24 pm

matt_ward wrote:Otherwise why would they sell the chess dvd's or cd's for 1/2 price or even less I mean you can buy for example fritz12 off ebay for 21.99 and get free postage.

This makes it substantially cheaper because if your buying fritz12 you get a 1 year membership on playchess " Premium" membership too.
You can buy the Excalibur version of Fritz 12 on eBay for £21.99, e.g. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fritz-Chess-12-PC ... 1c162f8e23, but its not the same as the ChessBase version. At £21.99 its actually expensive because you can buy it for £13.91 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Excalibur-Fritz ... B002MZZSL2).

I haven't seen any ChessBase versions of Fritz 12 on eBay at these prices.

matt_ward
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by matt_ward » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Ian does this mean I have been ripped off! I would not of brought it if I knew that.

Warren Kingston

Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Warren Kingston » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:51 pm

I bought Fritz 12 off Amazon for £14 but you do not get the years membership.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:23 pm

matt_ward wrote:Ian does this mean I have been ripped off! I would not of brought it if I knew that.
If you've bought the item that I referred to, then no, you have not been ripped off. You've just paid more for something than you need have done, but still less than the manufacturer's RRP, which I think is £24.99.

The seller is a business seller, so, if you don't want the item, you have the right to return it - read the eBay small print in the Return policy section (starting "Most Buy It Now purchases are protected by the Distance Selling Regulations ..."), which takes precedence over the seller's stated returns policy. You'll have to pay the return postage costs though.

Peter Lalic
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Peter Lalic » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:54 pm

In my opinion, someone who downloads from Torrents is often just cheap. Therefore, the large majority would hardly have considered the actual official purchase. When it comes to some of the junk that is published on the chess video market, Torrent downloaders get certain DVDs just for the sake of completeness. "Chess For Scoundrels"? I mean, come on! Some people wouldn't hand over a dime for that, so it's best that the makers don't lose sleep over all the downloading. In many cases, the makers' popularity increases. If I were in their position, I would do it for free (maybe I'm obsessed with Hollywood fame) - but seriously, I would just love videos of my teaching to be passed around. I wouldn't ask for money.
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Nick Murphy
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Nick Murphy » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:36 am

andrew martin wrote:Let's put it into perspective. I make a lot of these DVD's and rely on the royalties to help feed my kids and keep me going as a chess professional. When someone makes an illegal copy for themselves or even tries to sell it, I get no royalty payment from that. Whoever produces the DVD also gets shafted.
I am in no way condoning copying material illegally, but again - the underlying assumption is that if the person makes "an illegal copy for themselves" then they would have paid for it, had they not acquired it illegally. In my experience of talking to people who do admit to behaving this way, this is simply not the case.

Of course, if they then try to sell it on, that is another matter entirely, as the people who are buying clearly are much more likely to have paid legally were the cheaper illegal option not available to them.

Working in software technical support, this is an important topic to me. It is a tremendously tricky area, that needs a radical update of the copyright laws - which came into effect long before internet piracy became a serious issue. The recent Digital Economy Bill that was rushed through before the election has been shown to be sorely lacking in appropriate measures against internet piracy.

For instance, what is the difference between lending a music CD to a friend to copy (which in my opinion is generally acceptable by most people) and downloading that same CD illegally. Strictly speaking there is NO objective difference, yet one appears generally acceptable, and the other is deplored.

Also, the only instance (many years ago) of when I bought a chess engine disk off ebay (before I became part of the chess software business) I discovered on receipt that it was indeed a pirate copy. However, from that first disk came an interest in Chess software that sparked a considerable investment (financial and personal) in the Company that originally produced the software, and indeed the the programs the the Engine author sold personally on his website. I have since become an avid supporter of his work and purchased many of his programs direclty from him. All this came about from that one piece of software that someone had pirated and sold me on ebay. Clearly this is a case of the author losing £20 in the short term and gaining much more in the long term.

I'm not for one second suggesting that people who pirate software are all doing it out of public spirit - to publicise good programmers work - that would be ludicrous. I am merely pointing out that stating that artists/authors etc lose out to piracy simply isn't always the case.
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Simon Williams
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Simon Williams » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:31 am

I would have thought that this topic would have an obvious conclusion, the copying/downloading etc of DVD's is simply wrong. OK, common sense can be used in some of the cases that Nick mentions above but in general it is simply wrong and I agree with Andrew's comments above.

In the case of gingergm, if people did not buy the DVD's from a proper outlet then we would lose money and not be able to make any more DVD's. Common sense again, as a small business it would destroy us. The amount of time and effect put into making a DVD is enormous and for someone to come along and simply 'steal' (what else can it be? dictionary definition aside) that work is completely immoral.

A week after bringing out our first DVD, we actually found a Brazilian website was already selling it. With Portuguese text replacing the orginal cover/inlay! We contacted them and eventually they took it down but it just goes to show that this type of thing goes on.

Another thing worth bearing in mind is the quality of a copied DVD, it drops dramatically. Blurry image, bad sound etc. This is because (in the case of gingergm anyway), all copies are burnt off a glass original. This glass original is worth a lot of money and it insures that the DVD you see are of the highest standard.

http://www.gingergm.com

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:46 am

Simon Williams wrote:I would have thought that this topic would have an obvious conclusion, the copying/downloading etc of DVD's is simply wrong. OK, common sense can be used in some of the cases that Nick mentions above but in general it is simply wrong and I agree with Andrew's comments above.

In the case of gingergm, if people did not buy the DVD's from a proper outlet then we would lose money and not be able to make any more DVD's. Common sense again, as a small business it would destroy us. The amount of time and effect put into making a DVD is enormous and for someone to come along and simply 'steal' (what else can it be? dictionary definition aside) that work is completely immoral.
Agreed. I think you should make more extracts available on YouTube Simon, as the production value of your videos is so much better than the competition I think that it would attract a lot of publicity, and therefore sales.
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Trefor Owens
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Trefor Owens » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:57 am

Simon Williams wrote: .....

Another thing worth bearing in mind is the quality of a copied DVD, it drops dramatically. Blurry image, bad sound etc. This is because (in the case of gingergm anyway), all copies are burnt off a glass original. This glass original is worth a lot of money and it insures that the DVD you see are of the highest standard.

http://www.gingergm.com
Not a pint glass original? :lol:

Sorry I couldn't resist the joke - on a serious note though I do have all 3 of your DVDs and am very impressed

Cheers
Trefor

Nick Murphy
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Nick Murphy » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:53 am

Simon Williams wrote:I would have thought that this topic would have an obvious conclusion, the copying/downloading etc of DVD's is simply wrong. OK, common sense can be used in some of the cases that Nick mentions above but in general it is simply wrong and I agree with Andrew's comments above.
I can't agree with this due to the oversimplification. Copying/Downloading of DVDs it NOT simply wrong. If you used to to test out some software/DVD before purchasing it, it could be beneficial to copy/download DVDs. Indeed this pricipal is used to great effect by companies that allow their software out for free with some features disabled that are activated on purchase.
Simon Williams wrote:In the case of gingergm, if people did not buy the DVD's from a proper outlet then we would lose money and not be able to make any more DVD's. Common sense again, as a small business it would destroy us. The amount of time and effect put into making a DVD is enormous and for someone to come along and simply 'steal' (what else can it be? dictionary definition aside) that work is completely immoral.
As an actor (and a producer of videos for Chessbase) I have strong feelings about artists losing out on money for their hard work. However, the issue is not a "dictionary definition", it is the LEGAL definition. In the eyes of the law in the UK, copying/downloading illegaly is NOT stealing. Which in my opinion suggests a radical reworking of our ineffective and out-of-date copyright laws is badly needed.
Simon Williams wrote:A week after bringing out our first DVD, we actually found a Brazilian website was already selling it. With Portuguese text replacing the orginal cover/inlay! We contacted them and eventually they took it down but it just goes to show that this type of thing goes on.
Undeniabley wrong and utterly deplorable! But this is NOT the same as simply downloading/copying a dvd.
Simon Williams wrote:Another thing worth bearing in mind is the quality of a copied DVD, it drops dramatically. Blurry image, bad sound etc. This is because (in the case of gingergm anyway), all copies are burnt off a glass original. This glass original is worth a lot of money and it insures that the DVD you see are of the highest standard.
Perhaps I don't fully understand the manufacturing process, but as they are digital media, it seems to me a simple matter to copy DVDs at exactly the same high quality of the original. Unlike when I was younger, and copying from analgue tape to analgue tape reduced the quality of recording everytime you did it.
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John Foley
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by John Foley » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:40 pm

This thread is at least ten years out of date. The music industry has already been through the phase of trying to turn back the tide of digital copying. The answer is to embrace the digital age and make the content widely available through a platform which recovers revenues from an advertising / subscription model. iTunes and Spotify lead the way for music. The new wave for educational content is iTunes U. All we lack is a distinctive chess content aggregator. The main chess video producers would co-operate for mutual commercial benefit.

Richard Cowan
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Richard Cowan » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:05 pm

I agree with Nick ;)

Seriously though, this is a very complex issue and in my opinion doesn't help when people state "it's theft" or "wrong" as it to some extent misrepresents the issue. It is not theft as theft is currently defined. Even FACT has changed its advertising from stating that copywrite infringement is stealing!
Technically recording TV is illegal, on VHS; or Radio, on tape. No-one has ever been prosecuted for these offences, which shows how high a priority it is (and perhaps the number of people doing or have done it,) and downloading copywrighted material really isn't far away from this at all. I could download a song, or I could record it from the radio - is one worse than the other, and why?
Would you prosecute one person and not the other?
Otherwise almost everyone would be guilty of copywright infringement, and what about companies selling DVD-RW boxes for recording TV - accessories anyone?

I agree that selling pirated goods is far more morally dubious, however.

Ian Kingston
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Ian Kingston » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:14 pm

There is an excellent overview of UK Copyright Law at http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:29 pm

John Foley wrote:This thread is at least ten years out of date. The music industry has already been through the phase of trying to turn back the tide of digital copying. The answer is to embrace the digital age and make the content widely available through a platform which recovers revenues from an advertising / subscription model. iTunes and Spotify lead the way for music. The new wave for educational content is iTunes U. All we lack is a distinctive chess content aggregator. The main chess video producers would co-operate for mutual commercial benefit.
This is the correct way to think of it. If ChessBase (or whoever) had an online store where you could download their DVDs, as opposed to buying a hard copy of them, and retailed them at a cheaper price, then this problem wouldn't exist as much as it does now.

Jon D'Souza-Eva

Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Jon D'Souza-Eva » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:32 pm

Nick Murphy wrote:Perhaps I don't fully understand the manufacturing process, but as they are digital media, it seems to me a simple matter to copy DVDs at exactly the same high quality of the original. Unlike when I was younger, and copying from analgue tape to analgue tape reduced the quality of recording everytime you did it.
That was my understanding too. I thought the glass master was so that DVDs could be pressed quickly, i.e. good for producing high numbers of a DVD rather than a copy protection thing.