Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:22 pm

matt_ward wrote:I tend to disagree with this actually if you look at the statistics you'd probably find it is the opposite.
What is? This post could have done with the use of the QUOTE function.
The fact is people will buy and re- sell DVD's if they can get away with it and the reality is on this matter unless people that were caught if they where high offenders of this then perhaps they should be prosecuted otherwise it's going to be a continuous problem in the society.
Buying and re-selling isn't, in itself, a problem. It's when copying is thrown into the mix that you end up with... uh, ethically interesting situations.

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John Upham
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:28 pm

For the sake of clarity, I have forwarded the details of the two PayPal transactions from May 2010 for the two ChessBase and one Polgar DVD.

I have yet to hear back.

ChessBase GmbH are aware of this matter as are the producers of Foxy Videos as is Susan Polgar personally.

I would like to know how the copied DVDs were sourced, who were they bought from so that that source can be shut down or prosecuted.

Both Chessbase and Foxy and their UK agents are very interested in getting to the bottom of this matter.
Last edited by John Upham on Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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matt_ward
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by matt_ward » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:36 pm

"John Upham"]For the sake of clarity, I have forwarded the details of the two PayPal transactions from May 2010 for the two ChessBase and one Polgar DVD.


John, I am pleased to hear someone has taken action lets hope this will get investigated.


Matt. :D :D

Warren Kingston

Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Warren Kingston » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:52 am

I think people KNOW when they are buying copied discs, even off the net. If not, bit of naivety, one feels. If the price offered is a lot cheaper than book price, beware.

Buy from Chessbase or Amazon direct.

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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by John Upham » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:53 pm

I've yet to hear back from Peter Saunders following my transmission of the PayPal receipts for the three DVDs.

I was hoping to give you all an update in which he named his supplier(s)...
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by petersaunders » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:04 pm

John. Thank you for the info and the name of the buyer.He was in fact the last person to buy anything.
This person contacted me on 12th May 2010 and was sent Polgars Zukatort.
A week later he contacted me again saying how pleased he was and asking for further discs.
The titles he wanted I did not have. After a while he settled on the other 2 discs that he bought.
They were sent to him on the 21st May 2010.
He at no time suggested there was anything wrong with the discs and having had the Polgar disc for over a week he had plenty of time to assess it. He has had all 3 discs now for nearly 6 months and only now is there mention of these discs not being genuine. You say the ones in your possession are very clearly copies so surely that would have been spotted at the time of purchase and he wouldn't have come back for more. The only other possibility is that the discs you are holding are not the ones sent out 6 months ago. This leaves me at a loss as to know what to think. Is it possible the discs were borrowed by others? I have in fact got 11 discs left in my possession and I have opened them. Not a problem now as no more discs will be sold anyway. They all look genuine to me. Unfortunately I cannot stop you contactng whoever but I am confident that the discs I sent out were genuine. I have details of my sources which I will give to any official body that approaches me.

Peter

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Carl Hibbard » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:09 am

After carefully reading the entire thread I see nothing here but 'suggestions' and 'innuendo' and so have decided not to remove it
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Peter Lalic » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:35 pm

I think people underestimate just how large the chess downloading community is - this should prove enlightening... in less than a week, they are already geared up to churn out the cracked version of ChessBase 11.
http://immortalchess.net/forum/archive/ ... -4691.html
When things reach this kind of proportions, it is time to sigh and resign. If products were reasonably priced, then probability says fewer people would have felt compelled to turn that way. Now that companies like ChessBase are talking about prices in their tens of pounds, it gets silly: this is just a boardgame!
Hence sites like this: http://immortalchess.net/forum/archive/ ... /f-27.html
What can you do? There are too few cases of websites being shut down, and lawsuits are rare - especially for chess material!
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:41 pm

I don't think people should just give up else the whole thing becomes pointless.

Andrew does a DVD, I buy it, I copy it and sell the copies keeping all the money.
It's theft. Plain theft. There is no other word for it.
And if a chess player is ripping off a fellow chess player then that in my
eyes is a pretty low shot.

(I don't do it by the way. I do sell loads of stuff on ebay, hardly any chess stuff but no DVD's.)

The solution by a lot companies is to simply jack up the price to cover their
losses due to piracy.
But if you see it being done, especially on ebay, then you can report them.
I reported one guy who was at it and he was removed within two days.

True if they lowered their prices so as to make piracy a no profit turnover
that would stop it, but how low can they low go without them making a loss themselves.

And what do you do about the guys who buy the genuine article and then
puts it on the net as a free download.

And what about stuff offered free by a chess friend.
I wish I had £1.00 for every free copy of Rybke 4 I've been offered.

I've been offered loads free copies of DVD's (have always said no...to be honest I do
not fancy them at all, I had two genuine Romans and a Kopec that was enough).

Databasses, Ebooks, Chess programs......
I'm sure I'm not alone in being offered this stuff for free.
90% of the time I say 'no thanks' but have taken an Ebook disc and
a database for free.
(Ebooks are hopless, I'm a book and board guiy and after I merged my free database
with my genuine CB8 database I ended up with thousands and thousands of doublers.)

I was given 6 copies of F10 to hand out amongst the boys at Bells.
These are on the church roof opposite Bells.

Not done out of the spirit of anti-piracy, I simply did not want my boys
playing like a bunch of drones (but that is another debate for another thread).

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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Richard Thursby » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:47 am

Geoff Chandler wrote: And what do you do about the guys who buy the genuine article and then
puts it on the net as a free download.

And what about stuff offered free by a chess friend.
I wish I had £1.00 for every free copy of Rybke 4 I've been offered.

I've been offered loads free copies of DVD's (have always said no...to be honest I do
not fancy them at all, I had two genuine Romans and a Kopec that was enough).

Databasses, Ebooks, Chess programs......
I'm sure I'm not alone in being offered this stuff for free.
90% of the time I say 'no thanks' but have taken an Ebook disc and
a database for free.
(Ebooks are hopless, I'm a book and board guiy and after I merged my free database
with my genuine CB8 database I ended up with thousands and thousands of doublers.)
Some of the suppliers are now offering free versions of their software, for example you can have an earlier version of Rybka for free by going here http://www.rybkachess.com/index.php?aus ... mo+version While it might not be useful if you're a super GM, it's strong enough for most mere mortals. While it won't stop people putting illegal versions of software on the web for free download, there is now a guilt-free option for the next time you get offered Rybka 4 for free.

I am not surprised that merging the free database with Chessbase gave lots of duplicates. Given one database that came with some demo software was of world championship matches, it likely contains a large number of duplicates with my Fritz database.

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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Nick Murphy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:40 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:Andrew does a DVD, I buy it, I copy it and sell the copies keeping all the money.
It's theft. Plain theft. There is no other word for it.
No no no! It is categorically NOT "theft".

By any definition of theft I can find, the above scenario does not count as theft as "Andrew" is not permanently deprived of property.

It is copyright infringement, which is illegal and punishable. And I'm sure people could find other words for it :lol: , but theft, it is not.
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:26 am

Would have thouight copyright infringement meant you made your own DVD
saying word for word practically everything else Andrew has said.
Takling credit for and getting paid someone's else work.

Here someone have made a pure copy of Andrew's DVD and sold it for profit.
Wrap it it up in any way you want. It's basically theft.

Unclear what the score is on the free DVD's that are going about.
People go to a lot of unpaid time and effort to give a friend a copy.

Theft by Philanthropy?

Edit 1:

Had a PM asking me to clear up this matter.

"Here someone have made a pure copy....."

'Here' in this instance refers to my hypothetical case where I am
copying and selling DVD's and not meant to be taken as an allegation
aganist anyone actually on here. Sorry if it read wrong.
Last edited by Geoff Chandler on Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nick Murphy
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Nick Murphy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:06 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:Would have thouight copyright infringement meant you made your own DVD
saying word for word practically everything else Andrew has said.
Takling credit for and getting paid someone's else work.
No, just copying it infringes copyright unless you have the copyright-holder's permission.

Geoff Chandler wrote:Here someone have made a pure copy of Andrew's DVD and sold it for profit.
Wrap it it up in any way you want. It's basically theft.
I don't wanna keep going on about this, but it is categorically NOT theft. Nobody is being deprived of any possessions, which is a what makes theft theft. And you can't assume that the person copying the item would have paid for it had the possibility of downloading/copying not been available. This isn't just a semantics, it's an important distinction.

Once again, I'm not defending such behaviour at all. I'm merely trying to get people out of the habit of saying copying/downloading = theft.
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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:30 pm

Nick Murphy wrote:[Once again, I'm not defending such behaviour at all. I'm merely trying to get people out of the habit of saying copying/downloading = theft.
Interestingly, the Citizen's Advice Bureau which serves the general public rather than lawyers, does refer to it as theft - http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/sea ... Search.y=0

I think many people would regard these practices precisely as 'theft' in the wider, common understanding of the word, even if there is a legal difference between the definition of copyright infringement and theft. And how can one ascertain whether those receiving unauthorised copies of someone's copyrighted material would have otherwise bought it, and how is this relevant in any case?

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Re: Copying and re-selling chess DVDs

Post by E Michael White » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:32 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:The scoresheets, and hence the moves written on them, are the property of the event.

This is claimed by FIDE.

It certainly allows an arbiter to check on number of moves played, draws by repetition, etc and insist that a player's scoresheet can be used to update the opponent's.
The score sheets are not owned by the arbiter ! The arbiter and event organiser are different people; FIDE wider rules recognise this by referring to the chief organiser or CO. Although the arbiter in local UK Weekend events etc may be on the organising committee, or be the only organiser, he then wears two hats and cannot use the rights of one in the capacity of the other.

It is desirable to keep the functions of the chief organiser and arbiter separate as in the event of an appeal against an arbiter decision a member of the organising committee should be on the appeal committee but the arbiter should not. It is important that the organisers are represented as they are the ones who may have to shell out in the event of any subsequent legal action.

The arbiter is only entitled to see the scoreheet at all times according to :-
FIDE 8.2 wrote: The scoresheet shall be visible to the arbiter throughout the game.
Well thats whats written in the rules; I know different arbiters like to assume different powers for themselves and bend the rules.
Last edited by E Michael White on Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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