Why OTB Club Chess is always going to be great!

[Tryfon Gavriel]

Hi all

Online chess has a major flaw - the potential for engine cheating. I think maybe this is a key trump card to bear in mind for OTB chess - it is much more credible, and can support prizes, and more competitive rewards without attracting too many cheats - which is so easy to do online.

I was playing in a 3 minute Chesscube tournament the other day, and got really crushed in one game. I did a post-mortem of it you may be interested in which has attracted quite a lot of very interesting comments and insights so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJaHdsuKEQ8

The tournament in question can be seen in full here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4fb07ym ... sponse_rev

Best wishes
Tryfon

[Gavin Strachan]

totally agree. on top of this is the amount of games i have lost on time in totally won positions. When I say totally won - queen king v king (and any theme on this variation!).

[Jon Mahony]

I gave up on Chesscube - I’ve played 3 minute tourneys there and been 30 seconds to 5 seconds up on time and my opponent has mysteriously started to get time back on his clock (there was no increment in the time controls) while mine ticked away and I eventually lost. This would happen quite a bit, so I'm not sure if there is a way to hack the site or not.

I’ve rarely suspected cheating with a computer in online CC, though obviously it does go on. But practically everyone is using an online opening explorer, which is legal but drains a lot of the fun out of it.

Agreed, no substitute for OTB Chess

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

Losing on time in won positions is a characteristic of blitz chess and can happen OTB as well as online. I think playing online games at slower time controls is a very useful way to get some extra chess in when there are no suitable players about.

The only cheating I've noticed on playchess.com is that some players seem to have a way of avoiding flag falls when they run out of time. When I realise this is happening I just resign the game, block the user and go onto the next one. On sites dedicated to correspondence chess, cheating by engine use is astonishingly common.

Tryfon - Could you post a PGN of this game? I don't think a youtube video is the best way to play through a game!

[Tryfon Gavriel]

Losing on time in won positions is a characteristic of blitz chess and can happen OTB as well as online. I think playing online games at slower time controls is a very useful way to get some extra chess in when there are no suitable players about.

The only cheating I've noticed on playchess.com is that some players seem to have a way of avoiding flag falls when they run out of time. When I realise this is happening I just resign the game, block the user and go onto the next one. On sites dedicated to correspondence chess, cheating by engine use is astonishingly common.

Tryfon - Could you post a PGN of this game? I don't think a youtube video is the best way to play through a game!

[Site "www.chesscube.com"]
[Event "Rapid Thunder Cup"]
[White "[email protected]"]
[Black "[email protected]"]
[Date "2011.01.10"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Round "3"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Bf4 c6 7. Qd2 Ne7 8. h3 h6 9. O-O-O g5 10. Be5 f6 11. Bh2 O-O 12. Kb1 Nd7 13. Re1 b5 14. Bd6 Rf7 15. a4 Nf5 16. Ba3 a6 17. g4 Ne7 18. Bd3 Nb6 19. Bc5 Nc4 20. Qe2 Bf8 21. b3 Rb8 22. Ka2 Qa5 23. Nb1 Bd7 24. c3 Rb7 25. Ka1 Qc7 26. bxc4 bxc4 27. Bc2 Qa5 28. Qd2 Rb3 29. Bxb3 cxb3 30. Qb2 Qxa4+ 31. Qa3 Qc4 32. Bxe7 Bxe7 33. Rxe7 b2+ 34. Kxb2 Qb5+ 35. Kc2 c5 36. Rxf7 Kxf7 37. Re1 Bc6 38. dxc5 d4 39. Nxd4 Qb7 40. Nxc6 Qxc6 41. Qb3+ Kg7 42. Re7+ Kh8 43. Qb8+ 1-0

[Tryfon Gavriel]

I gave up on Chesscube - I’ve played 3 minute tourneys there and been 30 seconds to 5 seconds up on time and my opponent has mysteriously started to get time back on his clock (there was no increment in the time controls) while mine ticked away and I eventually lost. This would happen quite a bit, so I'm not sure if there is a way to hack the site or not.

I’ve rarely suspected cheating with a computer in online CC, though obviously it does go on. But practically everyone is using an online opening explorer, which is legal but drains a lot of the fun out of it.

Agreed, no substitute for OTB Chess

Well yes - in correspondence chess as opposed to blitz chess, it is very difficult to prove anything if someone has used an engine because of the time available. They could have used different engines at different points in the game, for varying lengths of time. They could have legitimately used Opening books, and analysis board.

But a dynamic live rating system helps you avoid engine abusers to a certain extent. A recent new policy on my own correspondence site which we will put in effect from February 1st is to make sure in the Team leagues that in a team of 7, you can only have one player above 2500. This is more like "engine risk management" and it is based on the live ratings.

[David Pardoe]

Jon D...
I agree some of your points.... and it can be helpful to OTB I think.
However, I`ve played on the Gameknot site in the `Tournaments`... I think the`re now up to No 74, or something.
These can be quite good at times, but also very frustrating. Groups of players play all-play-all sections, with winners going through to next round..etc.
These rounds can last months (at 3-days per move), with much stalling and time wasting, leading to some players eventually getting fed up & quitting..... They need to take out the crazy `time-out` allowances, or reduce them from 80 days per year tp say 30 days max. Also, this is compounded by the addition of one extra day for each week the event continues for....

So yes, OTB is best in my view, but the `lottery` QPF`s where the speed chess kings often just blow there opponents off the clock, I think need changing. My suggestion is for a truncated RP finish, where, after the first time control on say move 35 ... the clocks are set back 15 mins to allow each player to play a further 20 moves. If the game continues beyond that.., then adjournment, followed by a standard rate should apply.....or the option of `adjudication` for the `away` player if significant travel problems, etc. This gives a first playing session of at least 55 moves....ish
The point of this plan is to limit the current `open ended blitz finishes to a fixed number of moves, such that probably 95% of games will finish in the first session, but curbing the balmy crash bang wallop finishes where pawns and pieces fly round the board like meteors in lunny mind blowing finishes, where speed and luck (+ some skill perhaps) hold the day over normal sanity at the board.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

I must admit I've never played in a tournament on playchess.com. Perhaps I'd come across more people cheating if I took part in these.

[Alex Holowczak]

So yes, OTB is best in my view, but the `lottery` QPF`s where the speed chess kings often just blow there opponents off the clock, I think need changing. My suggestion is for a truncated RP finish, where, after the first time control on say move 35 ... the clocks are set back 15 mins to allow each player to play a further 20 moves. If the game continues beyond that.., then adjournment, followed by a standard rate should apply.....or the option of `adjudication` for the `away` player if significant travel problems, etc. This gives a first playing session of at least 55 moves....ish
The point of this plan is to limit the current `open ended blitz finishes to a fixed number of moves, such that probably 95% of games will finish in the first session, but curbing the balmy crash bang wallop finishes where pawns and pieces fly round the board like meteors in lunny mind blowing finishes, where speed and luck (+ some skill perhaps) hold the day over normal sanity at the board.

If you're going to have an adjournment, why faff around with a quicker playing session at the end of the first session? I don't see the point of some sort of adjournment-quickplay hybrid, which won't please either the pro-quickplay or pro-adjournment camps.

[Gavin Strachan]

I gave up on Chesscube - I’ve played 3 minute tourneys there and been 30 seconds to 5 seconds up on time and my opponent has mysteriously started to get time back on his clock (there was no increment in the time controls) while mine ticked away and I eventually lost. This would happen quite a bit, so I'm not sure if there is a way to hack the site or not.

Yep I have had the same problem recently and for some reason it would say I have horrendous lag when my adsl speed is of 20mB's. Although my computer is not the greatest, the flash is clunky to say the least which is one reason for the crummy experience.

[Alex Holowczak]

I gave up on Chesscube - I’ve played 3 minute tourneys there and been 30 seconds to 5 seconds up on time and my opponent has mysteriously started to get time back on his clock (there was no increment in the time controls) while mine ticked away and I eventually lost. This would happen quite a bit, so I'm not sure if there is a way to hack the site or not.

What's happening is, as said above, there's a big lag.

Basically, you're moving, and it takes your opponent a while to see it. Your opponent then moves, but it takes a while to reach you. During this process, your opponent's clock will do irregular things. Your opponent might well think your clock is, too. It's generally caused by either player having a poor Internet connection. Some websites already show a bar, to aid with identifying dodgy connections.

[Matthew Turner]

I played through the video on Youtube and White did play very well. However, I think we have to be very careful about accusing people of cheating. 23. Nb1 is cited as an incredibly subtle knight retreat which becomes very strong much later in the game. However, one could also say that the Knight was attacked and there was nowhere for it to move forwards.

[matt_ward]

Alot of sites these days have actual software and admin teams to control cheaters on sites such as Playchess.com and ICC.

Both sites which I recommend to anybody starting online, they take it seriously another potential site is Gamcolony an american site which is free but again quiet a few cheats on there.

I Would look at cheating on a large scale of chess sites, and in general I would be surprised if more than 3/10 are using engines which I would class a good proportion so and I think its probably less than 30% that try using engines.

Matt.

[Alex Holowczak]

To be honest, I don't really mind the cheating. If someone wants to play to 2500 standard by using an engine, that's fine by me if their rating is 2500!

[Joey Stewart]

I come up against loads of cheating online - that is why it is never more then just a bit of fun, and cannot ever be used to host legitimate competitions (apart from those centaur free for all tournaments, which are quite ineteresting to watch)