French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:19 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote: You mean this:-
"the Board mandated the Federal Bureau to bring the case to a penal court (sic)"

ChessBase translates it as
the Executive Committee has mandated the Federal Bureau to bring this case to trial in a court of law.
the original French being
le Comité Directeur a mandaté le Bureau Fédéral afin de porter cette affaire devant les juridictions pénales.
Although whether the "Federal Bureau" is part of the FFE or the French version of the CPS isn't clear.

A French dictionary translates juridiction as jurisdiction and pénales seems to mean penal. The two words together are probably an idiom though.

Difficult to see what the civil or criminal offence is. Napoleon played chess - perhaps he left something behind in French law. Consultation games aren't against civil or criminal law even though they are usually against the rules in chess competitions.
Thanks Roger. If this case really had gone criminal it would be quite an escalation wouldn't it? It doesn't really fit with what else we've heard so far about the 'accused' waiting to give their side of the story.

We shall see.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:23 pm

James Plaskett wrote:It is well known that a group of masters - 4 of whom went on to become GMs - were involved in a syndicate rigging UK events 30 years ago.
No action ever taken.
I've seen you say stuff like that before. Would you care to expand? Specifically, are you talking about

(a) the throwing of games/deliberately losing
(b) going easy on each other/agreeing draws between the group to ensure that prize money is shared between the conspirators.

Not that I think (b) is OK, just that it's not the same thing as (a).




In general, though, I kind of agree with you about chess world nettles not being grasped as often as they might be.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:29 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:1) Do all national chess federations (and specifically the ECF) have a standard procedure to follow if such accusations are made about their players?
Good question. My best guess is the answer is no - on the grounds that it hasn't happened often enough yet. Unfortunately my feeling is that this may well have to change soon.

A poster on Chess Vibes makes the point that the ICC has made a good job of dealing with the recent allegations against Pakistani cricketers, and that's because they already have a system in place - dedicated unit, established procedures, history of cooperation with police etc.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I rather fear that soon chess well have to do something similar about accusations of computer use. If not the whole credibility of the game might go.

Matthew Turner
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:05 pm

To respond a couple of Chris Kreuzer's points,

Biel might well be upping their surveillance, but to give you some idea I played in the Open perhaps 20 years ago. Back then you had to go through a metal detector to get to the top A-P-A section, so they certainly take the risk of cheating seriously

This comment from the Biel organisers is very interesting if translated correctly
5.It is only in September, about a month after the Biel Open that we received an e-mail, from a contact, of three anonymous testimonies of players accusing directly the aforementioned players of “organized cheating”. Those accusations are indeed very detailed. A sample game is displayed which could have been manipulated. But the victim GM didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary at the time.

So the accusations were very detailed and a game could have been manipulated. Sounds to me like Biel organisers ducked the issue. Again, I think the French Chess Federation deserves a huge amount of credit for not brushing things under the carpet.


James Plaskett
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by James Plaskett » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:37 am

I am talking about (a), Mr Bryant.
The mother of one of them had a letter published in CHESS saying they were up to it... and they just carried on.

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Gavin Strachan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:42 am

I don't know the amount of money involved in the event rigging James is going on about, but I have heard of players deliberately dropping grading points so next season they get into easier sections of tournaments to win money. The money involved must be so pitiful though that they must be desperate! Also players sometimes drop points so that play in specific teams.
Last edited by Gavin Strachan on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

LozCooper

Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by LozCooper » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:43 am

James Plaskett wrote:They´re all at it now -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... tch-fixing
Match fixing in sumo wrestling, they'll be saying next that WWE and TNA isn't genuine :lol:

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Gavin Strachan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:52 am

LozCooper wrote:
James Plaskett wrote:They´re all at it now -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... tch-fixing
Match fixing in sumo wrestling, they'll be saying next that WWE and TNA isn't genuine :lol:
I'm really upset you said that Loz, I'm still getting over Santa and the tooth fairy may well not exist. :(

Mick Norris
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:32 am

James Plaskett wrote:I am talking about (a), Mr Bryant.
The mother of one of them had a letter published in CHESS saying they were up to it... and they just carried on.
For those of us who didn't read CHESS, who are you talking about?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:47 am

James Plaskett wrote:I am talking about (a), Mr Bryant.
The mother of one of them had a letter published in CHESS saying they were up to it... and they just carried on.
That really is quite naughty. Does she name names? I think I shall investigate further.

As for Sumo, you may be aware that there's a chapter in Freakonomics about Sumo cheats and how a few got caught. Might be worth a read to see if there's a lesson there about how to catch chess cheats.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:55 am

LozCooper wrote:
James Plaskett wrote:They´re all at it now -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... tch-fixing
Match fixing in sumo wrestling, they'll be saying next that WWE and TNA isn't genuine :lol:
My knowledge of Sumo isn't extensive, but my understanding from the book I mentioned in the previous post is that cheating/fixing matches in the sport is a HUGE scandal. Not at all the same thing as obviously pre-arranged WWF and more akin to, say, the impact on Pakistanis of cheating allegations against some of their cricketers.

Michael Jones
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Michael Jones » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:24 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:ChessBase translates it as
the Executive Committee has mandated the Federal Bureau to bring this case to trial in a court of law.
the original French being
le Comité Directeur a mandaté le Bureau Fédéral afin de porter cette affaire devant les juridictions pénales.
Although whether the "Federal Bureau" is part of the FFE or the French version of the CPS isn't clear.

A French dictionary translates juridiction as jurisdiction and pénales seems to mean penal. The two words together are probably an idiom though.

Difficult to see what the civil or criminal offence is. Napoleon played chess - perhaps he left something behind in French law. Consultation games aren't against civil or criminal law even though they are usually against the rules in chess competitions.
Yes, I'd been going from the Chessbase translation. I can't find any mention of the "Bureau Fédéral" on French Wikipedia, which would probably point towards it being part of the FFE rather than a state organisation. Looks like I should check before posting something on the basis of a dodgy translation.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:33 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:That really is quite naughty. Does she name names? I think I shall investigate further.
I recall the letter in question. I noticed though that her son had been a frequent prize-winner at then recent events and presumed it was an ironic comment on his success and those of his contemporaries.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:37 pm

Without naming the individual concerned (or her GM son) the letter is in the September 1983 issue of CHESS (No 905-06)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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