ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Neville Belinfante
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:23 pm

ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Neville Belinfante » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:18 pm

This is something that I have wondered for some time and is related to the discussions about future ECF funding.
National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
For those people who play in international tournaments.
Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
Do any tournament organizers actually ask to see your membership card?
Do any countries insist that you join their national membership scheme even though you are a member with another country?

Regards

Neville Belinfante

Sean Hewitt

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:25 pm

Neville Belinfante wrote: National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
No it isn't. The ECF used to claim this as justification for it's membership rule but this was exposed as a lie some time ago and to be fair they no longer make the claim.
Neville Belinfante wrote: Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
Do any tournament organizers actually ask to see your membership card?
No and No.
Neville Belinfante wrote: Do any countries insist that you join their national membership scheme even though you are a member with another country?
Yes. USA and Canada are two that I know of. There are probably others.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:28 pm

I ask for nationality, but not national membership number. (The "federation" field on the entry forms I receive is often blank, mind you. Some people are obviously from no country at all.)

I definitely don't ask to see membership cards - I'm usually pushed for time as it is.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19086
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:11 pm

Neville Belinfante wrote: National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
For those people who play in international tournaments.
Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
If you have an international rating, you just point to your data on the FIDE site to confirm who you are. That tells them your federation as well. If you don't, then you point at the ECF grading site and try to convince them that (ECF/8) + 650 converts to a rating in a number range that they understand. If you think about it, organisers of European Opens are accustomed to accepting entries from a wide range of countries. It might be different if you were both not internationally rated yourself and trying to enter a remote domestic tournament.

In France I think the rule is - you have to be a member of a French Club to play in the French League (singular I think it's all one competition with regional sub-divisions) This applies even if not FRG or resident in France. If you are French, you have to be a member of a club to play in a rated tournament. Again I don't know if that's Internationally rated ones only - but apart from one-days, nearly all French tournaments are internationally rated. Foreigners they don't really care about. You don't get a domestic French rating unless you're a French club member. What your opponents score I'm not sure either, it would certainly count for or towards their International Rating if you have one. If you don't have one, you'd just be unrated. It's quite possible to earn an international rating playing entirely in France, I imagine telling the IRO about this helped get an ENG stamp. Still the fide site has codes even for players without a rating yet.

The French Federation has considerable financial support both from the French Government, local authorities and their commercial sponsor, the bank BNP-Paribas.

Neville Belinfante
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Neville Belinfante » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:23 pm

I started this thread to find out what happens to English players when they play in FIDE rated tournaments abroad - not the situation in English tournaments. Apologies if that was not clear from the thread title.

Regards

Neville Belinfante

Alan Walton
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:48 pm

I personally have never been asked if I was a member of my National Federation, mainly because it is expected due to the fact I have a FIDE rating, only when I went to Canada last summer you had to become a member of the Canadian Federation either the full rate of approximately £80 or single tournament membership of about £30

David Sedgwick
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:56 pm

I played in a tournament in Italy a couple of years ago.

I think the practice there is that you have to be a member of the FSI (Italian Chess Federation) either if your FIDE affiliation is to Italy or if you are resident in Italy.

I wasn't asked for any proof that I was an ECF member. I think they assumed that I would be, as I was shown as English on the FIDE Rating List.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19086
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:12 am

David Sedgwick wrote: I wasn't asked for any proof that I was an ECF member. I think they assumed that I would be, as I was shown as English on the FIDE Rating List.
Many years ago, I got my first FIDE rating by playing in Italy and the Isle of Man. Much to my surprise I was listed as ITA for my first international rating. Since then I think the national International Rating Officers have got their act together as regards to national affiliation. It's still an issue though as Kirsan's FIDE can in theory demand an arm, a leg and a transplant for a transfer from one Federation to another.

User avatar
Adam Raoof
Posts: 2577
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: NW4 4UY
Contact:

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:43 am

Neville Belinfante wrote:This is something that I have wondered for some time and is related to the discussions about future ECF funding.
National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
For those people who play in international tournaments.
Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
Do any tournament organizers actually ask to see your membership card?
Do any countries insist that you join their national membership scheme even though you are a member with another country?

Regards

Neville Belinfante
Neville - what do you hope to learn from this survey?
Adam Raoof IA, IO
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Tornelo - https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/chess-england
Simon Williams "The Ginger GM" - https://gingergm.com/ref/106.html
Don’t stop playing chess!

David Sedgwick
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:59 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Neville Belinfante wrote:This is something that I have wondered for some time and is related to the discussions about future ECF funding.
National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
For those people who play in international tournaments.
Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
Do any tournament organizers actually ask to see your membership card?
Do any countries insist that you join their national membership scheme even though you are a member with another country?

Regards

Neville Belinfante
Neville - what do you hope to learn from this survey?
I don't know what Neville hopes to learn, but you and the ECF Board should hope to learn some useful information about how to operate a Universal Membership Scheme in England.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:04 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: I wasn't asked for any proof that I was an ECF member. I think they assumed that I would be, as I was shown as English on the FIDE Rating List.
Many years ago, I got my first FIDE rating by playing in Italy and the Isle of Man. Much to my surprise I was listed as ITA for my first international rating. Since then I think the national International Rating Officers have got their act together as regards to national affiliation. It's still an issue though as Kirsan's FIDE can in theory demand an arm, a leg and a transplant for a transfer from one Federation to another.
I don't think it's so much a case of National IROs getting their act together as of the FIDE Rating Office in Elista now having better systems for the receipt of correct information.

I've always found the Elista Office to be prompt and helpful in dealing with problems and queries and I've never known any difficulties in correcting mistakes about a player's country (as opposed to a genuine change, which does indeed incur a fee nowadays).

User avatar
Adam Raoof
Posts: 2577
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: NW4 4UY
Contact:

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:06 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:
Neville Belinfante wrote:This is something that I have wondered for some time and is related to the discussions about future ECF funding.
National membership is required to play in any FIDE rated tournament.
For those people who play in international tournaments.
Do the organizers of those tournaments generally ask for your nationality and national membership number?
Do any tournament organizers actually ask to see your membership card?
Do any countries insist that you join their national membership scheme even though you are a member with another country?

Regards

Neville Belinfante
Neville - what do you hope to learn from this survey?
I don't know what Neville hopes to learn, but you and the ECF Board should hope to learn some useful information about how to operate a Universal Membership Scheme in England.
David, thanks for your answer - though on reflection you might consider the tone is a touch patronising.

I take you at your word though. If I wanted to find out that information I would not be asking English players who play abroad (as I do) because one can find out very little by that method. What you should do is contact the organisers of the Dutch, Belgian or French Chess Federations and ask them how they organise their membership schemes - or at least read their websites. This is something which I have done, and continue to do, to make sure that what we are putting forward will actually be able to be implemented if people vote for it. I have also contacted officials in the USCF, the English Table Tennis Association and others.

I meant my question to Neville to be taken literally - what does he hope to learn from the answers?

Most overseas tournaments assume you are a member of the ECF because you are on the rating list as ENG, English tournaments assume you are a member of your own Federation. Some countries don't care, they just make you join their scheme anyway (USA).
Adam Raoof IA, IO
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Tornelo - https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/chess-england
Simon Williams "The Ginger GM" - https://gingergm.com/ref/106.html
Don’t stop playing chess!

David Sedgwick
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:18 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:I don't know what Neville hopes to learn, but you and the ECF Board should hope to learn some useful information about how to operate a Universal Membership Scheme in England.
David, thanks for your answer - though on reflection you might consider the tone is a touch patronising.

I take you at your word though. If I wanted to find out that information I would not be asking English players who play abroad (as I do) because one can find out very little by that method. What you should do is contact the organisers of the Dutch, Belgian or French Chess Federations and ask them how they organise their membership schemes - or at least read their websites. This is something which I have done, and continue to do, to make sure that what we are putting forward will actually be able to be implemented if people vote for it. I have also contacted officials in the USCF, the English Table Tennis Association and others.

I meant my question to Neville to be taken literally - what does he hope to learn from the answers?

Most overseas tournaments assume you are a member of the ECF because you are on the rating list as ENG, English tournaments assume you are a member of your own Federation. Some countries don't care, they just make you join their scheme anyway (USA).
Point taken regarding your first sentence. Sorry for any offence caused.

However, I don't think you should dismiss the potential benefits of this survey. It's admirable that you have contacted the leaderships of a number of relevant organisations here and abroad, but what you will learn from them is how they think their systems operate. This thread will provide evidence (admittedly anecdotal) as to how their systems actually do operate in practice. The two aren't necessarily the same.

User avatar
Gareth Harley-Yeo
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:58 pm
Location: Wales
Contact:

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Gareth Harley-Yeo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:01 am

I'm a member of the WCU. I've never been asked to prove this, neither in England nor anywhere else. I don't think I've ever actually been told what my membership number even is?!

When I fill in an entry form for an English congress, I see the 'ECF membership number:' as a voucher code to get £2 off the entry fee. All Welsh entry forms simply state 'Grade' 'Club' and sometimes 'Nationality'. We're not interested in membership numbers as we don't charge game fees. If you’re a member of a welsh club or have direct membership you’ll be graded. If not – you wont.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19086
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Membership and foreign tournaments

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:48 pm

[quote="Gareth Harley-Yeo" If you’re a member of a welsh club or have direct membership you’ll be graded. If not – you wont.[/quote]

An interesting observation. Does that mean that if you (as a direct member or club member) play in a tournament someone who is English, that the game is treated as ungraded for Welsh rating? In other words, the same rule as in International events for pairings against unrated players. Or perhaps, you rate it one-sided just for the Welsh. The opponent would have an ECF grade which could be converted.

The same applying if you encounter someone Welsh who isn't a member?

Post Reply