Subscription concessions?

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:13 pm

Adam Raoof wrote: Cost of a single fare on a London Bus: £2.20

Cost to Oyster Card holders: £1.30

Message: if you travel a lot in London get an Oyster Card!

Note that nobody is stopping you getting on a bus and paying the larger fare, or getting an Oyster Card for £5 (returnable). The market determines the outcome. 34m people own them. They don't charge for having an Oyster Card... yet.

Membership of the ECF / NMS works the same way. I still think they are acting reasonably, in fact they are ahead of the game.
Unless you have an as yet unpublished scheme, I don't think that ECF/NMS works in any way like an Oyster card. I can see a similarity that you purchase it in advance. Under an Oyster card, you touch in at the start of a journey and touch out at the end. The card is then debited with the cost of the journey made. When the card runs out of credit you have to top it up. Critically the ECF/NMS schemes give you unlimited games within a season. There's no question of the ECF establishing that you have a credit of twenty games and debiting your credit every time a game came through for grading. If they did that, it would certainly be a novel way of modernising Game Fee, but critically it would be a pay as you play scheme not a flat rate for unlimited play. There is a crucial difference, it's my understanding and presumably that of your fellow directors that the ECF want to move away from pay-to-play in favour of unlimited games for an annual fee.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:18 pm

If you use an Oyster Card enough on any given day, your purchases effectively morph into the purchase of a Day Travelcard, which is somewhat more analogous to a membership.

Alan Burke

Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Alan Burke » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:22 pm

Adam Raoof wrote ... "I am not sure that a club which has no membership fee will ever find itself overwhelmed by new members (try it!)" ...

Maybe we are an exception to the rule, but 3Cs' do not charge any compulsary fee to come to the club and just rely upon the honesty of those attending to put some money in the tin on their arrival - and no check is kept on the amount donated - yet we usually have in excess of 50 members in attendance each week.

Regarding the fees charged at Heywood, surely it should be looked at from the opposite direction in that non-members are not being charged extra, but members are being given a discount for signing-up.

As I said in my previous post, it's akin to those who buy a weekly-saver ticket for the bus as opposed to those who pay for just a single jounrey - the former will get a better deal that the latter.

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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:27 pm

I think this point about Heywood is a red herring.

The Birmingham League Rapidplay will have a £1.50 discount this year for members, even though over 6 rounds, the Game Fee will come to £1.74. So we're charging ECF members 24p more than we should be; they're paying for some of their Game Fee twice. I'm sure many other events will share this problem; rounding to the nearest 50p. I'm getting a £2 discount from the Worcestershire Open in July, but paying £2.70 in Game Fee. So again, I'm being overcharged by 70p.

In contrast to this, Heywood seem to be doing it the other way around; they're making it cheaper for the members than Game Fee payers.

I don't see why this is a problem?

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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:30 pm

I agree with Roger.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:40 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:If you use an Oyster Card enough on any given day, your purchases effectively morph into the purchase of a Day Travelcard, which is somewhat more analogous to a membership.
http://www.londontoolkit.com/briefing/t ... oyster.htm has some details on this.

There is a cap on the amount you can pay in any 24 hour period, so it can be price equivalent to a Travelcard.

An NMS style Oyster Card would always charge you the maximum amount.

An Oyster style membership scheme would sell you pre-purchased graded games. So if you don't play much, you just buy 10 and that can last for more than one year. If you intend to play every other Congress, you buy a block of 50 or 100. Getting the IT to work would be a killer, but in essence it's a updated form of Game Fee. You could also cap it to a maximum game count in a given period.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: In contrast to this, Heywood seem to be doing it the other way around; they're making it cheaper for the members than Game Fee payers.

I don't see why this is a problem?
£ 6 rather than £ 2.70 is rather more than rounding.

The point being that it's promoting a message about costs and advantages of membership that isn't really the case nationally. Other Congresses don't really care and just add back the profit from any Game Fee savings into the prize fund.

The entry form isn't on line any more, but I don't think St Albans back in April offered any discounts.

I don't believe regular Congress players are particularly fussed one way or the other about saving £ 2.50 or £ 3 on a £ 25 entry fee.

In the Heywood context, most of the local players would be NMS members, so it's very much a £ 6 surcharge, rather than a £ 6 discount. Perhaps it's just intended to discourage GMan :(

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:10 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: I've noticed recently at e2e4 events how few English players are not already ECF members.
I think you've noticed how few regular Congress players aren't ECF members. The ECF have picked most of the low hanging fruit already as regards membership. It's not much use telling a club player about Congress discounts if they aren't interested in playing in more than one or any Congresses. I don't know about Chess Prevention taxes, but assuming a bronze club membership at around £ 8 -£ 12 and silver at £ 18 - £ 25, it's going to be that much more expensive to play in one local Congress if you must upgrade your membership to be allowed to play.

Andrew Farthing
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Andrew Farthing » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:I'm getting a £2 discount from the Worcestershire Open in July, but paying £2.70 in Game Fee. So again, I'm being overcharged by 70p.
You're quite right, but since the profits from the Worcestershire Open are donated to a designated charity - Age Concern Sandwell this year - your 70p gives its life in a good cause and I thank you for it!

Sean Hewitt

Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I think you've noticed how few regular Congress players aren't ECF members.
Nope. I think i was right the first time
Sean Hewitt wrote: I've noticed recently at e2e4 events how few English players are not already ECF members.

Sean Hewitt

Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: I don't know about Chess Prevention taxes, but assuming a bronze club membership at around £ 8 -£ 12 and silver at £ 18 - £ 25, it's going to be that much more expensive to play in one local Congress if you must upgrade your membership to be allowed to play.
Jesus H Christ. First you moan about the possibility of a flat rate membership and say that a tiered scheme would be fairer. When it seems that you might get that tiered scheme, you moan about that too. :oops:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:12 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: First you moan about the possibility of a flat rate membership and say that a tiered scheme would be fairer. When it seems that you might get that tiered scheme, you moan about that too. :oops:
Any scheme which doesn't contain per event costing is going to run into this marginal cost problem. I thought the tiered scheme was the ECF's idea to counter the possibility or probability of mass rejection of flat rate membership by AGMs. On paper it makes less of a cost hike to club only players, that's not so say it doesn't introduce problems for organisers of local Congresses.

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Sebastian Stone » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:14 pm

Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote:Sebastian said, As far as I'm aware one of the goals of the ECF is (or should be) to get people to play chess, not sneer at them.
I don't sneer at chess players, I support chess financially and with effort through playing and helping out. I have however very little time for the feckless scroungers, wingers, moaners and idle who complain about having to spend anything either to play or help promote the game while at the same time finding money to spend on everything and anything but the game!. I look forward to reading about your patronage/sponsorship of our game.
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chrisobee
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by chrisobee » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:33 pm

Gosh, reading this thread, and others, is pretty desperate stuff. It's a real eye opener to see how little many people care about those who find it difficult to fund their chess activities, do you actually live in the real world ? From a personal perspective I began playing chess in 1972, since then I have spent £1000's not just funding my own chess activities but helping others to learn and enjoy this great game, it wasn't a problem and I cared not a jot about who contributed what. The important issue was people not taking advantage, it's generally not that hard to figure out any who do. I repeat my earlier sentiment that I find it shameful anyone should make a sweeping statement about people who can afford to drink but then complain about not being able to afford to play chess. It's pretty much a truism to say their will be some ( seemingly mostly living in Lowestoft :wink: ) but in my own very long experience that generally isn't the case.
In short, if you can afford to comfortably fund your own chess activities why worry if help is given to those who can't. However, that would assume altruism is a common trait amongst chess players. I swear it used to be but this is UK 21st century where the attitude generally is "I'm all right, damn anyone else ! "
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Re: Subscription concessions?

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:06 pm

Chris, to be fair, I think there has only been one "I'm alright Jack" on this thread, and he has been most earnest in his postings.

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