Would you enter a tournament with no money prizes? Poll

[kishanpattni]

The Sunningdale International next month has no prize money and whilst the top sections do afford norm opportunities the rated sections do not. Yet people still play and I suspect that next months event will be the largest of its type that we have run with 80-100 players competing.

I have no doubt that these players have gotten wise to the fact that

a) even if they win, the prize barely covers their expenses and
b) they are better off in the long run with lower entry fees and lower prize money.

This is why so few GMs play in weekend events any more, even though they have a much higher probability of winning their section than anyone else.

I agree that lower entry fees and lower prizes can work out very well. When I play in the golders green blitz the entry fee is only £5 or £3 if your a member with 1st place normally working out at around £20. I'm actually playing there tonight. It does not matter too much if you lose as it is a very casual tournament. Of course the golders green blitz is merely an example and I am sure other factors come into the equation for rapidplays and longplay.

To get 80-100 people to play in the sunningdale is very impressive! However e2e4 tournaments are quite exceptional. I would guess that entries might be considerably higher for more regional tournaments, where there is a lesser requirement for hotel accommodation(for low entry fee tournaments).

[Roger de Coverly]

I’m playing at Sunningdale in August 2011 where there’s no proze money.

There are prizes of a sort at Sunningdale. Norms obviously for the IM and GM title seekers. The second section gives automatic qualification for a norm tournament. For non-rated players, there's the prize of an International rating. For everyone else it's just the potential to increase their International rating. That's double edged because it's easy enough to hand your points to others.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I’m playing at Sunningdale in August 2011 where there’s no proze money.

There are prizes of a sort at Sunningdale. Norms obviously for the IM and GM title seekers. The second section gives automatic qualification for a norm tournament. For non-rated players, there's the prize of an International rating. For everyone else it's just the potential to increase their International rating. That's double edged because it's easy enough to hand your points to others.

Given that the entry fee for this Masters section is £200, that is effectively the first prize being played for in the Challengers, though I'm sure some would prefer money to a free entry in a future tournament!

Having said that, some aspects of this confuse me slightly.

http://www.e2e4.org.uk/entrants_int.htm
http://www.e2e4.org.uk/international/20 ... /index.htm

At the moment, there are 28 entrants for the Masters section, and the introduction page says:

"A series of 10 player all play alls open to all players as follows:-

The Masters will offer players the opportunity to play for an IM norm and is open to players rated 2050 or above, or those who have qualified via the Challengers. Players will be placed into two groups of approximately equal strength.

The Challengers is open to players rated over 1900, or graded above 150 ECF, or qualified from a previous Major. Players will be placed in groups of approximately equal strength. The winner of each challengers section will qualify for a future Masters event free of charge."

I'm not sure (for the Masters) how 28 players can be divided into two groups for two 10 player all-play-alls, so either there will be more than two groups, or something else is planned, remembering that you have to maintain IM norm chances. There aren't many entrants for the Challengers section, but I wonder what would happen if there were lots of these sections, say five sections. Would all five winners go into future Masters events? You'd probably have to spread them out, if only to make sure you didn't lose out by having too many free entries to one event.

Sean, have previous winners of Challenger sections taken up their offers of a place in a Masters sections?

[Alan Walton]

I'm not sure (for the Masters) how 28 players can be divided into two groups for two 10 player all-play-alls

Considering the is 6 GMs already confirmed entrants, as you only require 2 GMs in a IM norm tournament then it looks likely that there will be 3 groups of ten, so therefore he only requires 2 more entries, these have to be of sufficient strength to maintain the 7/9 score for a norm

[IM Jack Rudd]

There are almost certainly going to be three Masters groups. If my arithmetic is correct, the two remaining entries either need to both be titled or to contain one titled-player-who-doesn't-want-a-norm (for example, another IM).

[George Szaszvari]

Hmm, in principle yes, but it also depends. I've always liked to play in opens with the opportunity for pairings with
titled players, who in turn would be more likely to enter an open tournament with prize money. I'd be less likely to
pay an entry fee, with other expenses, just to play my peers or lower rated opposition, when club or team chess
already gives that with the possibility of playing a titled player or two, without any prize money involved.

[LozCooper]

Having said that, some aspects of this confuse me slightly.

http://www.e2e4.org.uk/entrants_int.htm
http://www.e2e4.org.uk/international/20 ... /index.htm

I'm not sure (for the Masters) how 28 players can be divided into two groups for two 10 player all-play-alls, so either there will be more than two groups, or something else is planned, remembering that you have to maintain IM norm chances.

If you remove the word two it all makes sense and given all of Sean's all-play-all have 10 players in then I think you have your answer. Of the 28 players listed there are 16 titled players and at least 12 foreigners so providing the last two players are titled then he will have three all-play-alls with IM, WGM and WIM norms available provided that all those trying for an IM norm can play an average of 2230 and have four foreign opponents, five titled including two who are GMs or one GM & 2 IMs.

[Alan Burke]

David Gilbert said ... "Would I go to Blackpool and stay in a run-down B&B for two nights at £15 a night if there wasn’t the attraction of prize money – probably not."

What has that got to do with chess anyway ? I wouldn't go anywhere and stay in a run-down B&B for £15 per night. You always pay for what you get and if people wish to only pay that amount then they will usually get accomodation of that level.

If you went somewhere just for a weekend break would you still want to say at such a residence as desribed above ?

[Sean Hewitt]

From www.e2e4.org.uk

The Masters will offer players the opportunity to play for an IM norm and is open to players rated 2050 or above, or those who have qualified via the Challengers. Players will be placed into groups of approximately equal strength. There will be 3 of these sections, catering for 30 players.

Yes Christopher, the challengers winners do indeed take up their free places. It doesn't matter how many do this as we take the money from the previous challengers event to pay for their place.

[Niall Doran]

I’ll probably stay four nights and drink copious amounts of coffee at £2.50 a day – I usually do!

Flat rate coffee?!

Personally, I find it hard to play if nothing's at stake, but for me this is about Fide ranking points or finishing first in my category etc. Money's nice, but as I already have all I need, it's not a huge motivation. As a result, I tend to have poorer results in unrated games, as the fear isn't there to concentrate the mind.

[Sean Hewitt]

I've always liked to play in opens with the opportunity for pairings with
titled players, who in turn would be more likely to enter an open tournament with prize money.

Not necessarily. They may be more likely to play for a fee.

[Stewart Reuben]

Chess is unusual in offering significant prize money for relatively weak players. In offering prize money for junior tournaments it is very uusual indeed.
There is a relevance for most of the sections in the British. The prize money and expenses come from the entry fees apart from the Championship:
Entry fees could be lower with less prize money. The fees are liable to VAT. Thus lower prize money would result in the players giving less money to the government. The only chess event organisation that pays VAT in Britain is the ECF.

Niall Doran >but for me this is about Fide ranking points<

That interests me. I am sure Niall is not alone in thinking an ECF Grade is irrelevant once one gets a FIDE Rating. From 1 July 2012 the ratings will go down to 1000 - about 50 ECF. Coulsdon and e2e4 run several rated tournaments a year. I am disappointed that no entrepeneur active rather more towards the North of Britain has come forward to start a series. Perhaps that will change if the Spanish City project in Whitley Bay comes to fruition.

Stewart Reuben

[Paul Dargan]

Stewart - I have seen more redevelopment plans for the Spanish City than I can count ... successive North Tyneside councils have spectacularly failed to come-up with a workable solution ... of course I'd be delighted to be proved wrong and for the next scheme to work.... at least Whitley Bay seems to have lost the 'heroin capital of the NE' title now...

Paul

[Mark Hannon]

Would it be possible to have prizes that keep the money in the "chess economy"
E.g for team events a prize could be a master giving a simul. Individuals could get coaching, chess memorabilia or vouchers to spend at the bookstall.

[Niall Doran]

Would it be possible to have prizes that keep the money in the "chess economy"
E.g for team events a prize could be a master giving a simul. Individuals could get coaching, chess memorabilia or vouchers to spend at the bookstall.

In theory, yes. In reality, it'd be complicated. If you have a master giving a simul, dates and location have to be organised, the master might be in a different part of the country to the winning team.
Coaching would be similar.
Chess memorabilia, depends on what it is really. One person might be interested in that hardback copy of "Correspondence Chess in Britain and Ireland, 1824-1987" whereas many wouldn't.
Vouchers at the bookstall seems a good idea, assuming the book stall hasn't already started putting everything away towards the end of the last round, although if the prizes are book vouchers, then whoever's running it will have to hang on for a bit.

I think that most prize money given out will find its way back into the "chess economy" anyway, directly or not. In my own case, winning money doesn't really make me go out and buy more books or whatever, but as I keep entering tournaments, the money finds its way back.
Winning also encourages players to keep playing.