CJ Banned?

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Sebastian Stone » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:44 pm

Andrew Camp wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote:
I'm sure christians acknowledge that homosexuality exists...

Generally the bible is considered to be against homosexuality. There is, of course, debate on this issue. Generally christians who don't agree with homosexuality use the bible as support, and so do those who accept it.
With tongue firmly in cheek here (my own...oh god, stop digging) I listened to a Frankie Boyle show last night and he pointed out that, "The Bible says that all homosexuals should be stoned...well I'm sure that helps."

Don't flame me, just trying to lighten the mood.

*The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the author etc etc
:lol:

Gotta love Frankie.

To be fair, that's actually pretty tame for him.
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
benedgell wrote:The greatest British Championships in years has ended in English Chess as a collective being accused of homophobia in at least one national newspaper. A fine advert for potential sponsors.

There is question here that really needs to be asked. Why did CJ feel the need to go and give press statements before the matter had been discussed by the ECF board. I think taking a couple of steps back in his position may have taken a little of the sting out of the situation. As it is Stonewall is getting a lot of publicity hopefully that was not his intention?
By press release you mean tweeted about the incident.

Yeah, it really comes to something when National Organisations can't be homophobic in private. :|
Last edited by Sebastian Stone on Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick Thomas
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Nick Thomas » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:46 pm

Does anyone know exactly what the objection to the t-shire was? Was it the specific charity advertised, the wording or simply the reference to homosexuality. I think I can understand why the wearing of a t-shirt for an occasion such as this might be seen as a bit scruffy but can't quite see what the problem with this specific one was.

Liam Rabbitte
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Liam Rabbitte » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:48 pm

It seems to me that it’s the slogan on the shirt that people have the problem with and not the actually charity. Advertisers deliberately design such slogans to be confrontational and provoke a reaction. In this case it seems to have worked, no doubt more stories on this will be published and further degrade the image of chess. I personally agree with those who have stated that: “there is a time and a place” and I would agree a prize giving is not the most appropriate place to advertise/ endorse anything.

I just can’t believe a t-shirt has overshadowed, what has been, a fantastic British Championships. :(

Andrew Camp
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Andrew Camp » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:48 pm

Martin Regan wrote:Andrew Camp wrote:
I said earlier on in this thread that there seemed to be a lack of common sense on both sides here.
er no.What there is an attempt to equate two issues that are disproportionate. CJ's decision to wear the t-shirt was in my view selfish. The arbitor should have told him so.

The decision to ban it was of far greater import. It was a statement that says the ECF regards gay slogans as so offensive that it will ban its own President from presenting prizes rather than have a gay slogan view by younger chess players.

If you can not see that one is far more serious than the other then nothing more can be said.
Calm down, lovey. At no point have I said that both sides are equally at fault.
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Paul McKeown
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:55 pm

matt_ward wrote:I mean christians don't believe in homosexuality do they, and it's not condemned in the bible from my knowledge.
You will find that if you actually read the Bible that David (then future King) had a homosexual relationship with Jonathan for whom he expressed both great tenderness and great lust. He is the distant ancestor of Joseph, from which descent Jesus could claim his prophesied Kingship. So, if it's alright for Jesus's great great grandaddy, I think you will find out that its alright for any man or woman. It is not a question of "morality", as you put it, it is simply an aspect of human biology. If you would care to state where and how you believe the Bible to condemn homosexuality, then I would be happy to set you right. You will find, if you open your eyes, that many churches and their congregations in England are tolerant and may even have openly homosexual priests, ministers, pastors or elders.
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:56 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:Thank you Matt Mackenzie i will add the bigots did not win my oldest son gained 11 gces then went to 6th form college where he gained 3 A levels 2 As and a B he declined to go to uni and has basically travelled the world for the last 7 years.This will suprise a lot of people he has faced less bigotry in Africa the middle east or the sub continent than he has in the so called educated and liberal Britain and Europe
Eh, it depends greatly which parts of Africa you are in.

Paul Cooksey

Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:58 pm

Liam Rabbitte wrote:I just can’t believe a t-shirt has overshadowed, what has been, a fantastic British Championships. :(
Indeed :( . Although I don't think it is the t-shirt, rather the decision.

I don't even accept the decision to wear it was selfish, it was simply doing two things at once. CJ has said clearly we can't have one without the other.

Just on the "think of the children" argument, I think it is relevant this is anti-bullying slogan aimed at children which has already been widely publicised. Perhaps if it was distressing the parents, their children could have explained it to them? : Stonewall slogan

Nick Thomas
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Nick Thomas » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:59 pm

Liam Rabbitte wrote:It seems to me that it’s the slogan on the shirt that people have the problem with and not the actually charity
Could be. But what is it then about the slogan which is offensive?

matt_ward
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by matt_ward » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:01 pm

I agree with Liam it is ashame that a T- shirt overshadowed such a fantastic British Chess Championships. I think the critical point is that it was probably the wording on the T- shirt which people found offensive rather than what it said as it were.

I think people are entitled to wear what they want. It did not consist of expletives and therefore how can it really offend people, in actual fact the person that should of been banned is the arbiter which banned CJ I think it is ludicrous that they banned the President of the ECF and who has put more than £16,000 of his own personal savings, if it was not for him there probably would not of been an event this year of the standard we saw.

I think people should respect CJ and appreciate what his role is within the ECF.

MAtt.
Last edited by matt_ward on Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:01 pm

I have some sympathy with the officials in question: it had been a long, difficult two weeks, and the playing and arbiting conditions were not those I would normally put up with in a workplace. Anyone could make an error of judgment after such a fortnight. Nevertheless, I stand firm in my opinion that it was an error of judgment.

I would therefore like, in my capacity as a member of this year's British's backroom team, to apologise to CJ on behalf of the rest of the backroom team.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:03 pm

Martin Regan wrote:Andrew Camp wrote:
I said earlier on in this thread that there seemed to be a lack of common sense on both sides here.
er no.What there is an attempt to equate two issues that are disproportionate. CJ's decision to wear the t-shirt was in my view selfish. The arbitor should have told him so.

The decision to ban it was of far greater import. It was a statement that says the ECF regards gay slogans as so offensive that it will ban its own President from presenting prizes rather than have a gay slogan view by younger chess players.

If you can not see that one is far more serious than the other then nothing more can be said.
Agree 100% with the above.

Nick Thomas
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Nick Thomas » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:06 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:I have some sympathy with the officials in question: it had been a long, difficult two weeks, and the playing and arbiting conditions were not those I would normally put up with in a workplace. Anyone could make an error of judgment after such a fortnight. Nevertheless, I stand firm in my opinion that it was an error of judgment.

I would therefore like, in my capacity as a member of this year's British's backroom team, to apologise to CJ on behalf of the rest of the backroom team.
Do you know exactly what the problem was with the t-shirt?

William Metcalfe
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by William Metcalfe » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:07 pm

He has been to just about every country in Africa Christopher and the only middle eastern countrys he has not been to are Iraq and Israel.Israel might be a problem visiting with Iran ,Syria ect on his passport lol.
Last edited by William Metcalfe on Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:07 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:the playing and arbiting conditions were not those I would normally put up with in a workplace.
Will it be possible to hear more about this at some point? It was more than one trans-Atlantic phone call? I haven't actually heard many complaints about the playing conditions, but if there were problems, maybe that should be discussed somewhere on the forum (but not in this thread).

Simon Ansell
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Re: CJ Banned?

Post by Simon Ansell » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:07 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Martin Regan wrote:Andrew Camp wrote:
I said earlier on in this thread that there seemed to be a lack of common sense on both sides here.
er no.What there is an attempt to equate two issues that are disproportionate. CJ's decision to wear the t-shirt was in my view selfish. The arbitor should have told him so.

The decision to ban it was of far greater import. It was a statement that says the ECF regards gay slogans as so offensive that it will ban its own President from presenting prizes rather than have a gay slogan view by younger chess players.

If you can not see that one is far more serious than the other then nothing more can be said.
Agree 100% with the above.
This is essentially my view as well. But I repeat, there is no dress-code and the t-shirt was not offensive. Maybe there should be a dress-code. Had I turned up on board 3 in round 9 to play David Howell wearing the same t-shirt, would I have been asked to change? I very much doubt it.

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