Eliminating/discouraging draws

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
User avatar
Carl Hibbard
Posts: 5864
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:05 pm
Location: Evesham

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Carl Hibbard » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:59 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Geoff Chandler wrote:First opening TN from team Chandler & Cooksey.

The Evans Gambit. You play Black,After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 You do not move the Bishop but instead play 5...f5!
I should just clarify; our analytical efforts are aimed at finding gambits so unsound that there is no possibility of a draw. :)
Just a calm 6. d3 then what does Black do?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:05 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:The Evans Gambit. You play Black,
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3
[...snip...]
You do not move the Bishop but instead play 5...f5!
[...snip...]
It's an old idea from the Blackburne era which I introduced the RHP players too.
Taking the Bishop is very dodgy.
Not sure I believe that.

6. cxb4 fxe4 (what else?) 7. b5. You'll really have to tell me what the problem is for White, as I don't see it.

John Hickman
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by John Hickman » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:06 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Stone wrote:but here is the live games link http://www.members.aon.at/schach1/live/bundesliga.htm
The top board game featured a GM named Petrov. A draw was agreed in 8 moves. Appropriate somehow for a thread about discouraging draws.
Well he wanted to watch the Arsenal - Liverpool game, but might have regretted it since he's an Arsenal supporter :shock:

Peter Constantinou
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:17 pm

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Peter Constantinou » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:35 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Geoff Chandler wrote:The Evans Gambit. You play Black,
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3
[...snip...]
You do not move the Bishop but instead play 5...f5!
[...snip...]
It's an old idea from the Blackburne era which I introduced the RHP players too.
Taking the Bishop is very dodgy.
Not sure I believe that.

6. cxb4 fxe4 (what else?) 7. b5. You'll really have to tell me what the problem is for White, as I don't see it.
It's a shame. If white had to play 7. Ng1, then black would presumably have quite sensible compensation for the piece after 7...d5, at least for a fast game. Alas, 7.b5 does just seem to be a piece up and winning easily.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2419
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:57 pm

Hi Peter.

"It's a shame. If white had to play 7. Ng1..."

Which is a very common response played by first time facers.
Carl's honest 6.d3 looks like another plausible response.

They cannot switch on a box and look for a solution OTB.
You see the colour drain from their face as they flick over pages
of computer enchanced theory and find no answer.
It's move 6 in an opening invented 180 years ago and they don't know what to do?
Their opponent is grinning is like a wide-eyed maniac.

"...quite sensible compensation for the piece."

You are not looking for sensible compensation for the piece, there is none.
Your opponent will give it to you. Have 100% faith in your opponent too blunder.

Think about it.
Every game you have ever won has been because your opponent has blundered.
The theory is water tight. Players do blunder.
Your very own P.?? W?? L.?? D?? record proves it.

This 6.cxb4 and 7 b5 nonsense is Borg bedroom play.
How many time are you going to move that pawn in the opening?

You sac the b-pawn in the Evans after 6.cxb4 you have it back on the b-file.
That is not the way Captain Evans (Bless him) planned it.

The thread is about 'Eliminating/Discouraging draws.'
This bland insipid play 6.cxb4 and b5 stuff encourages them.

The obvious and best response is 6.d4! Development!

Image

Up and at 'em, over the top we go. You are game for a laugh then so am I.
The first one to waste a tempo captuiring a piece losses.

Where is your lust for adventure, your Corinthian Spirit.........your sense of humour?

And anway....

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 f5 6. cxb4 fxe4 7. b5 exf3
8. bxc6 Qh4 9. Bb3 Qe4+ 10. Kf1 fxg2+ 11. Kg1 gxh1=R mate

Image

Hallelujah!
Last edited by Geoff Chandler on Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:02 pm

Brilliant stuff Geoff.

User avatar
Rob Thompson
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:03 pm
Location: Behind you

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Rob Thompson » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:18 pm

8 Qxf3 (you'd like that move geoff, ignoring the piece and threatening an f7 mate instead) seems far more threatening
True glory lies in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:46 pm

Geoff,

Borg bedroom play, my granny's Isle of Harris.

It's flipping obvious. 6... fxe4 attacks the Nf3. 7. Nf3-g1 is obviously unattractive, yet there is no other place to move the knight to. The knight wants to go to e5, possibly to support operations against the Black king with the Bc4 and by Qd1-h5, but it is prevented from this by the Nc6. Therefore the most logical course of action is to attack the knight on c6, either to drive it away, allowing Nf3-e5, or simply to exchange knights for a pawn each, leaving White a piece up and Black's position a smoking ruin.

Actually, that move b4-b5 isn't even original. I'm not sure which opening I've seen it in, but the idea leaped out of the board at me. I've seen it before in some other line.

6. d2-d4 is also a fine and logical move, but, I really think your statement that taking the bishop is "very dodgy" is itself very dodgy. Personally I would prefer the extra piece after 6. cxb4 fxe4 7. b5, but I would also be happy with White's typical Evan's Gambit lead in development, coupled with Black's self-inflicted gash.

The whole idea of 5... f7-f5 is simply a trap for gamblers. Only a gambler would bet in that way on their opponent being clueless. Might work at 1700 level, probably not. Very unlikely to work at 2000 level.

You do talk a load of fanny at times, Geoff. A lot of the time, in fact.

But keep talking.

User avatar
Carl Hibbard
Posts: 5864
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:05 pm
Location: Evesham

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:Carl's honest 6.d3 looks like another plausible response.
More than just plausible, what is your move?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:00 pm

I don't think he was being entirely serious, viz the comment.. 'Where is ... your sense of humour?'.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:16 pm

Justin Hadi wrote:I don't think he was being entirely serious, viz the comment.. 'Where is ... your sense of humour?'.
Well, I think Geoff likes to teach younger and weaker chess players. But I would treat 5... f5 more as the sort of rubbish one should avoid and then explain why. It's a move with a bad attitude, it treats the opponent with disrespect, the message is "hey sucker, you're a sap". You won't get far in chess with that mentality.

I lost my sense of humour with the "borg bedroom play" comment, admittedly perhaps an over reaction, but if you've seen the move before it is more accurate to label it "thematic".

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:58 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:This 6.cxb4 and 7 b5 nonsense is Borg bedroom play.
How many time are you going to move that pawn in the opening?

You sac the b-pawn in the Evans after 6.cxb4 you have it back on the b-file.
That is not the way Captain Evans (Bless him) planned it.
Even this idea that you never play b4-b5 in the Evans is a little bit wide of the mark.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4!? Bb6

White avoids the immediate 5. b5, 6. Nxe5 because of 6... Qf6 with characteristic counterplay against f2, but sometimes plays an old variation beginning

5. a4 a6 6. Bb2 d6 7. b5

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:11 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Justin Hadi wrote:I don't think he was being entirely serious, viz the comment.. 'Where is ... your sense of humour?'.
Well, I think Geoff likes to teach younger and weaker chess players. But I would treat 5... f5 more as the sort of rubbish one should avoid and then explain why. It's a move with a bad attitude, it treats the opponent with disrespect, the message is "hey sucker, you're a sap". You won't get far in chess with that mentality.
That's a matter of opinion. Ljubojevic got to #3 in the world playing risky chess. OK not that risky, but weaker players if they see success/enjoy playing like this can always tone it down later.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)
Contact:

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:15 pm

Justin Hadi wrote:risky
Risky is a poor synonym for crap.
Justin Hadi wrote:Ljubojevic got to #3 in the world playing risky chess.
Ljubojevic never played garbage: he played well researched sharp lines. There is a world of difference.
Justin Hadi wrote:weaker players if they see success/enjoy playing like this can always tone it down later.
If they play stuff like that, they might beat other weak players, but they will regularly get their heads kicked in by fairly average club players. That can be quite discouraging. If Uncle Geoff then palms them off with his next wheeze, they'll end up nowhere.

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:23 pm

Paul McKeown wrote: If they play stuff like that, they might beat other weak players, but they will regularly get their heads kicked in by fairly average club players. That can be quite discouraging.
If they're weak it's gonna happen anyway... And it might be a good intro to gambit play. Garbage is a matter of opinion as well, Korchnoi considers the King's Indian garbage. What's garbage at one level works well at other levels, do you consider the Nescafe Frappe attack garbage? Another unsound sac which works at 200 level plus?

Post Reply