Funding a Grand Prix

[Adam Raoof]

Adam

Wouldn't it be more useful for the ECF to set up a centralised online entry system for congresses, allowing online payments?

I discussed this briefly with Harry today, and it would seem the kind of genuinely useful service the ECF could provide to both players and organisers - especially if it could be linked directly from the Tournament Calendar on the ECF website

It seems to be part of the e2e4 success story, but most events are run as a one-off annual event by volunteers with enough to do

Making the ECF popular and connecting with organisers (i.e. the electorate) and players must be a good idea - asking the electorate to pay towards a Grand Prix that used to be free might not

Thanks Mick

Assuming that organisers would actually want the service, would it not run into a) VAT and b) charges from PayPal or whatever service we used to accept payment?

Technically it would be simple to accept money from players for multiple events, but then you'd need to have a member of staff just to pass that data over on a Friday night to organisers. You would need to set it up so organisers could verify entries and check the grades up to the last minute.

If anyone wanted to set a system like this up for their own tournament then I am sure either Sean or myself could help them do exactly that, without centralising the process?

Adam

[Alex Holowczak]

Assuming that organisers would actually want the service, would it not run into a) VAT and b) charges from PayPal or whatever service we used to accept payment?

(a) No. The ECF webspace can host the service, but the organisation whose tournament it is can take the money direct via their Paypal account, rather than the ECF's Paypal account. (The ECF doesn't even have a Paypal account.) It doesn't have to go through the ECF accounts. So unless the organisation has an annual turnover of > £70,000, no, it won't uncur VAT!
(b) Yes. So you put the price of your entry up by £1 to cover it. It'll take 20p + 3.4% up to a certain threshold that I can't remember, after which it becomes 20p + 2.9%, and so on.

[Adam Raoof]

Assuming that organisers would actually want the service, would it not run into a) VAT and b) charges from PayPal or whatever service we used to accept payment?

(a) No. The ECF webspace can host the service, but the organisation whose tournament it is can take the money direct via their Paypal account, rather than the ECF's Paypal account. (The ECF doesn't even have a Paypal account.) It doesn't have to go through the ECF accounts. So unless the organisation has an annual turnover of > £70,000, no, it won't uncur VAT!
(b) Yes. So you put the price of your entry up by £1 to cover it. It'll take 20p + 3.4% up to a certain threshold that I can't remember, after which it becomes 20p + 2.9%, and so on.

Actually the ECF does have a PayPal account!

OK, assuming this is a service people would want, would they pay for it?

Organisers would get a login to a page where they could edit and approve entries, be able to print out completed pairing cards for the tournament. They could either manually approve payments for entries, as I do for Golders Green, or it could be linked to Paypal. A list of approved entries would then show on a customised page. We can tie the fields that make up the entry form, and the pairing card, to Tournament Director - which is what we do for the Classic. This means you can take entries and import them directly when approved into TD ready for your event.

[Alex Holowczak]

Wow, I had no idea the ECF had a PayPal account.

Why do I need a login page where I could edit and approve entries? Why can't it just send me an e-mail when someone enters, complete with all their entry information?

Besides, shouldn't this be set up and used for the British Championship first, before we start letting everyone else use it?

[Adam Raoof]

Wow, I had no idea the ECF had a PayPal account.

Why do I need a login page where I could edit and approve entries? Why can't it just send me an e-mail when someone enters, complete with all their entry information?

Besides, shouldn't this be set up and used for the British Championship first, before we start letting everyone else use it?

Because people enter the wrong section, they use false IDs, they don't know their own grade or rating and just guess, and many other reasons!

Possibly, though why start with the biggest event with the most sections? Surely it would be sensible to find a three section weekender to trial it?

[Alex Holowczak]

Because people enter the wrong section, they use false IDs, they don't know their own grade or rating and just guess, and many other reasons!

All you're getting is an e-mail with their information on it. That's just as likely to have the above problems as if someone entered via paper and Royal Mail. You can still vet the entry in the way you would a postal entry. If any information is amiss, you send them an e-mail back asking them for clarifications.

The other measure you take is that you don't accept an online entry without payment of the entry fee. If that doesn't deter them from doing it in the first place, the impact on your event is limited; you're still getting money off them!

Possibly, though why start with the biggest event with the most sections? Surely it would be sensible to find a three section weekender to trial it?

The process is exactly the same, no matter how many sections. The only difference will be when you pay the Entry Fee; you'll have a longer list of options to pay than most normal congresses. Given the array of things at the British, you're likely to set up everything you need that every other organiser might want, rather than have a request you didn't expect and can't do readily.

I envisage the following conversation:
<Organiser> Our congress is struggling to be viable, can you help us?
<ECF Officer> You can use our online entry system for your congress if you want?
<Organiser> OK, how does it work?
***ECF Officer explains how it works.
<Organiser> Right; do you use it for ECF events?
<ECF Officer> No
<Organiser>

[Roger de Coverly]

The process is exactly the same, no matter how many sections. The only difference will be when you pay the Entry Fee; you'll have a longer list of options to pay than most normal congresses. Given the array of things at the British, you're likely to set up everything you need that every other organiser might want, rather than have a request you didn't expect and can't do readily.

A British Championship system would be more complex. Not only do you have more events, you also have the possibility of one person entering multiple events. Also you might need to build in the rules about whether entering overlapping events was permitted.

Whilst the average Congress has multiple sections, it's usually an error if someone tries to enter more than one of them.

There is a potential problem with the ECF getting involved in any way. The ECF pays VAT but local events don't. A tax person could claim that as the ECF was responsible for all chess in England, that all entry fees and Congress expenses should be consolidated with the ECF's accounts in the manner of the British Championships. Under current arrangements it's very simple to demonstrate that Congresses are independent of the ECF. It gets marginally muddier if the ECF is collecting money on behalf of Congresses. The ECF has never felt confident enough about its tax position to spin off the British Championships into an arms length body.

[Sean Hewitt]

The VAT position would certainly need to be checked out if this proposal were to go forward. The rules are complex and I wouldn't like to say with any certainty whether such a facilitated online entry would get the approval of HMRC. I think it probably would, but I'd still want to check!

[Alex Holowczak]

A British Championship system would be more complex. Not only do you have more events, you also have the possibility of one person entering multiple events.

Why is that more complex? At the moment, you have a radio button meaning you choose 1. Turn this into a tick box, and you're sorted! You can have as many section entries as you want.

When you've paid for one event, you can go to a page that either:
(1) Sends you back to the payment page if you have to pay for another entry
(2) Thanks you for your payment, and invites to go to back to the tournament homepage

Also you might need to build in the rules about whether entering overlapping events was permitted.

Why? You might want to, but you certainly wouldn't need to. If someone enters overlapping events, then it's no different from what might happen now if someone does it on a postal entry form. You send an e-mail/phone call/letter and make the entrant aware of the problem.

[Matt Harrison]

It happens in other leisure activities without apparent problems. In athletics and triathlon there are competing websites offering similar functionality:

http://www.entrycentral.com/
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/defaultevents.asp?sp=&v=2
http://www.tri247.com/events.html
http://www.sportssystems.co.uk/

One key advantage of such systems (as Sean does with e2e4 events) is to maintain a list of players entered for each event, and a database of past results. I'd consider creating such a system an almost essential component of the new membership scheme. It could be linked to the membership database, allowing people to join the ECF when entering an event, or charging the pay-to-play rate automatically, and passing this directly to the ECF.

[Roger de Coverly]

When you've paid for one event, you can go to a page that either:
(1) Sends you back to the payment page if you have to pay for another entry
(2) Thanks you for your payment, and invites to go to back to the tournament homepage

Isn't writing web pages something like writing computer programs? The more options you include, the more complex it becomes. So a simple one page form you can probably build from a template. For multiple pages and options you need a bit more development and testing.

If someone enters overlapping events, then it's no different from what might happen now if someone does it on a postal entry form. You send an e-mail/phone call/letter and make the entrant aware of the problem.

With an on-line form it's probably easier to tick too many boxes than on a paper form. Also if you have to scrutinise every entry, you are not getting the time-saving over processing it the traditional way.

[Adam Raoof]

Trust me, the technical side is relatively easy - we already do this for the Classic.

Having looked at Matt's list of athletics websites, especially the first one, I like the notion that the ECF could take entry fees and chess club memberships on behalf of tournaments and clubs. We could take a percentage and put that towards a GP.

However I ask again - how much would clubs and tournaments pay for such a service? 10% of the cost of entry? 5%?

[Roger de Coverly]

It happens in other leisure activities without apparent problems. In athletics and triathlon there are competing websites offering similar functionality:
.

I would imagine the sites were moderately expensive to build and run, but then they are mostly commercial sites. Do the sites charge a fee or commission for the entries processed through them?

The approach of accepting entries through a magazine site is interesting. Perhaps the Chess and Bridge empire would like to run on line entry. It's taking the entries for the London Chess Classic, although the on line entry link isn't active yet.

The default method of entering chess Congresses is unchanged in over forty years and probably longer. Namely you fill in an entry form and send off a cheque with the entry form in the post. As a consequence you expect to turn up just before the first round and for play to start on time.

[Alex Holowczak]

When you've paid for one event, you can go to a page that either:
(1) Sends you back to the payment page if you have to pay for another entry
(2) Thanks you for your payment, and invites to go to back to the tournament homepage

Isn't writing web pages something like writing computer programs? The more options you include, the more complex it becomes. So a simple one page form you can probably build from a template. For multiple pages and options you need a bit more development and testing.

Yes, but tick box versus radio button is trivial to a programmer. A template would only need minor modification.

If someone enters overlapping events, then it's no different from what might happen now if someone does it on a postal entry form. You send an e-mail/phone call/letter and make the entrant aware of the problem.

With an on-line form it's probably easier to tick too many boxes than on a paper form. Also if you have to scrutinise every entry, you are not getting the time-saving over processing it the traditional way.

I don't think people are as careless as you think they are.

The entrant is making a time-saving in that he doesn't have to print and post an entry form. He can do it from the comfort of his own laptop chair, and the task can be immediately followed by booking the necessary accommodation online.

The organiser is making a saving in that he doesn't have to lug around a folder with 500 entry forms, he can just label them and keep them in his inbox. It's simply a convenience issue for the organiser.

[Sean Hewitt]

I like the notion that the ECF could take entry fees and chess club memberships on behalf of tournaments and clubs. We could take a percentage and put that towards a GP.

However I ask again - how much would clubs and tournaments pay for such a service? 10% of the cost of entry? 5%?

If you do this, the VAT man will have 16.67% right away!