Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

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Krishna Shiatis
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Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:29 pm

Andrew Martin wrote:
This is an unusual request addressed to Sean.

Several young players who will be going to the World Youth in Brazil are playing at Gatwick. If they make themselves known to you, can you withold publishing their games on the Internet until the World Youth is over?

I know how efficient your system is. I was shocked analysing some games from Sunningdale last night with one of the lads who is going, just how quickly information is available these days.

I don't want to give potential opponents in Caldas Novas any advantages whatsoever.

Just let me know if this is possible.

Thanks, Andrew
This is very interesting.

This is a request from Andrew Martin IM to Sean from e2e4 requesting that some games are not published until after the Worlds. It basically implies that it gives an advantage to other juniors at the Worlds.

Surely, this should tell all the powers that be, that junior games should generally not be published anyway? Any info on our juniors is valuable and we should not post everywhere. We should let our juniors develop in peace.

I am still unsure as to why some congresses publish whilst others do not.

Ever since someone did an upsetting article on my son in a junior magazine, I really feel that junior games should be protected in some way. We do have rules to protect our children's photos and names being published everywhere, surely there should be some guidelines about junior chess games?

I believe that the ECF (perhaps junior director) should issue some guidelines about process and procedure.

I do understand that the law says that the games are public property, but perhaps parents/junior players should have the right to say that their games are not published.

There could be some arrangement as has been reached by Sean and Andrew.

Perhaps.
Last edited by IM Jack Rudd on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixing QUOTE tags

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:37 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote: Ever since someone did an upsetting article on my son in a junior magazine, I really feel that junior games should be protected in some way. We do have rules to protect our children's photos and names being published everywhere, surely there should be some guidelines about junior chess games?
I've read the annotations in question, incidentally. There's nothing in there that I'd take issue with had my child been the loser.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:39 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:I am still unsure as to why some congresses publish whilst others do not.
FIDE-rated events do this for one very simple reason. FIDE tends to require the PGN to be submitted along with rating files. Other events do so because they choose to; players consider it to be valuable. Just look at the furore if I neglect doing the 4NCL games on here for a few days!
Krishna Shiatis wrote:I do understand that the law says that the games are public property, but perhaps parents/junior players should have the right to say that their games are not published.
A game of chess is not subject to copyright, according to a lecturer at my University who gave a lecture about Intellectual Property Rights. (I explicitly asked him afterwards!)

A game of chess being published is not damaging to the child in any way. It's no different from publishing a football match where a team might lose 11-0. The only disadvantage is that other children can then prepare for their games against them. This is an accepted part of chess that a player should get used to if he wants to become a titled player. I don't see why a child can't get used to that at an early age.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:40 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:... Perhaps.
Perhaps not.

The distribution of information, results, live games and so on are integral part of chess today. If you don't like how this game works, you (or your son) should play something else. I really see no point in hiding games other than a grandmasterwannabe attitude. I dont believe that "preparing for your sub-2000 rated opponent" makes such a difference, regardless what your preferred trainer might suggest.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:47 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote: Ever since someone did an upsetting article on my son in a junior magazine, I really feel that junior games should be protected in some way. We do have rules to protect our children's photos and names being published everywhere, surely there should be some guidelines about junior chess games?
I've read the annotations in question, incidentally. There's nothing in there that I'd take issue with had my child been the loser.
Hi Jack and Alex,

At the end of the day, some have thicker skin than others. The question remains, does publishing games give someone an advantage? If not, then why the need for Andrew Martin to ask Sean to delay/not publish the junior games?

Also, should children be protected if their parents or they wish it?

I think yes. A child is a still a child, chess player or not. We protect them in every other walk of life, so why not in chess?

I have to say, I am always baffled at the way children are treated in the chess world.

Kind regards,

Krishna

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:53 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:... Perhaps.
Perhaps not.

The distribution of information, results, live games and so on are integral part of chess today. If you don't like how this game works, you (or your son) should play something else. I really see no point in hiding games other than a grandmasterwannabe attitude. I dont believe that "preparing for your sub-2000 rated opponent" makes such a difference, regardless what your preferred trainer might suggest.
I think this really proves my point.

Paolo has totally missed the point and even suggested that my son go and play something else. English chess is struggling with participation, particularly junior participation and this is what we have to deal with.

It is not just me saying that the games should not be published Paolo, Andrew Martin IM has suggested it to Sean and Sean has agreed. If what you say is true and it makes no difference, then why has Andrew Martin made the suggestion that he has and why has Sean agreed to help?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:59 pm

I think it's reasonably well established that publishing games gives an advantage to the future opponents of the people whose games are published, which is why Andrew made this specific request for a specific tournament. In general, however, the chess community as a whole is best served by information's being freely available - including game scores from tournaments.

Paul Cooksey

Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:02 pm

Er, yes. Access to the games of your opponent is an advantage.

Not publishing the e2e4 games any faster than they have to be, seems just about ok. Even that makes me a little uncomfortable. Certainly, as Sean said, all players should be treated the same.

I'd be reluctant to have different rules for juniors. You might just as well "encourage" them with extra time on the clock, or exemption from touch move.

Sean Hewitt

Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:15 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:It is not just me saying that the games should not be published Paolo, Andrew Martin IM has suggested it to Sean and Sean has agreed.
Erm, that's not quite true. I have't agreed not to publish but I have agreed to withdraw the games from our website for a couple of weeks, and to delay submitting the games to FIDE by a couple of weeks. That's all.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:31 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:It is not just me saying that the games should not be published Paolo, Andrew Martin IM has suggested it to Sean and Sean has agreed.
Erm, that's not quite true. I have't agreed not to publish but I have agreed to withdraw the games from our website for a couple of weeks, and to delay submitting the games to FIDE by a couple of weeks. That's all.
As I said in another thread, delaying publication of something until a specific date is generally referred to as an embargo on publication. And I thought you had agreed to publish during the event and then take the games down? That means that technically they will have still been published. Hopefully a simple password-secured area of the site will solve any problems and ensure that only those competing at the event (and provided with the password) will have access to the games. Personally, I think the juniors in question should learn to adapt and be prepared for their opponents knowing their openings. After all, they will have to adapt in this way while at the World Juniors, and also during the Gatwick event.

Carol Williams
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Carol Williams » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:57 pm

I have one word to say on this matter:-

Ethics

Richard Bates
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:00 pm

It's tough enough playing juniors, many underrated, rapidly improving and with little available 'preparation evidence', without allowing them to selectively remove all the few games they do have from public databases! Juniors should be encouraged, but not spoonfed.

And of course, having your games published isn't necessarily a disadvantaged, providing you learn the lessons of each and every game you play. Unlike some of us who quite happily leave a litany of dodgy openings lying about and then invite opponents to demonstrate the refutations if they can be bothered to do half an hours prep...
Last edited by Richard Bates on Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:04 pm

It's obvious that Andrew spotted TN's in all the junior opening repertoires
and wanted to avert a disaster. :wink:

The way around this is to have ready a whole load of bogus games with odd
and obscure openings, just add the junior names and drop them on the site.

In the days when I edited CapaTal Chess, A long time time before DB's.
I was asked a few times not to or delay publishing a league game as they
wanted to use that line again in an up and coming event.
In them days you only saw one or two games per tournament published unless
the tournament ran a full bulletin like Lloyds or Hastings.

My few remaining memory cells are itching.
Did B.H.Wood not once delay publishing a game on request?
I recall a note from a past CHESS to such an effect.

I wonder if Mr Barden had such a request from a player in the old days
before instant information.

My only wee concern regarding juniors is publishing their pictures with their name.
On The Corner I often refrained from giving names if I gave a picture unless
it was a 'famous' junior like Rhian Hughes who had appeared in a national newspaper.

A humerous example is below where I just call him the 8 year old winner.
(You can see his trophy tucked under his arm).
His Dad agreed he could do a wonderful Alfred E.Nuemann (MAD Magazine)
impression which by coincidence is my logo on here.

Image

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David Shepherd
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 pm

The availability of games makes it easier for your opponents but it is a two way street, unfortunately I believe there is a variation in availabilty between countries. In my opinion it makes sense to protect not just the games of the junior players but probably more so the games of our professional players where these are not FIDE rated. This does not mean they should not be readily available within the UK (for example the booklet of games from the British).

Richard Bates
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:08 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:It's obvious that Andrew spotted TN's in all the junior opening repertoires
and wanted to avert a disaster. :wink:

The way around this is to have ready a whole load of bogus games with odd
and obscure openings, just add the junior names and drop them on the site.
I was on a Junior Squad trip back in the early nineties when a couple of the squad were paired together and decided to play out a drawing line in an opening neither of them played - thought it might cause a future opponent to waste valuable preparation time.

Unfortunately one of them took up the opening a few months later...

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