Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

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Phil Ramsey
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Phil Ramsey » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:53 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:If you play a rated tournament, the games get published, and if you are forced to play the occasional difefrent opening as a result, I think that is a good thing!
I agree with that.

In agreeing to Andrew's request in a varied form I hope everyone can see that we are not refusing to publish junior games (which would be just plain daft). However, delaying the wider publication of games from Gatwick might just prevent the opponent's of our England team getting wind of some whizzo preparation and I'm all for helping our England players in any way that I can!
Sean have you looked into publishing e2e4 games on chessgames.com? This would be a great way for the public to access the games and would bring extra publicity to your tournaments.

Sean Hewitt

Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:01 pm

Phil Ramsey wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:If you play a rated tournament, the games get published, and if you are forced to play the occasional difefrent opening as a result, I think that is a good thing!
I agree with that.

In agreeing to Andrew's request in a varied form I hope everyone can see that we are not refusing to publish junior games (which would be just plain daft). However, delaying the wider publication of games from Gatwick might just prevent the opponent's of our England team getting wind of some whizzo preparation and I'm all for helping our England players in any way that I can!
Sean have you looked into publishing e2e4 games on chessgames.com? This would be a great way for the public to access the games and would bring extra publicity to your tournaments.
No. What's that? They are already in TWIC, chessbase etc. I thought they were the bibles as it were?

Bob Kane
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Bob Kane » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:29 pm

Does ~NOT~ publishing games give anyone an ~unfair~advantage ??

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:36 pm

Bob Kane wrote:Does ~NOT~ publishing games give anyone an ~unfair~advantage ??
I don't think "unfair" is the right term, it looks to me like taking advantage of an unregulated loophole.

The request discussed in this thread is even more questionable because in a junior context. I wonder of the educational value of telling juniors they should not only try to improve their own play, but also make an effort to make the play of everyone else worse (in this game by hiding previous games). With a bit of exaggeration, you could also recommend the same juniors, if they are good at math NOT to study with their schoolmates and NOT to help them in math because the better their scores, the higher the average and the lower the value of their own results.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:05 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Bob Kane wrote:Does ~NOT~ publishing games give anyone an ~unfair~advantage ??
I don't think "unfair" is the right term, it looks to me like taking advantage of an unregulated loophole.

The request discussed in this thread is even more questionable because in a junior context. I wonder of the educational value of telling juniors they should not only try to improve their own play, but also make an effort to make the play of everyone else worse (in this game by hiding previous games). With a bit of exaggeration, you could also recommend the same juniors, if they are good at math NOT to study with their schoolmates and NOT to help them in math because the better their scores, the higher the average and the lower the value of their own results.
Paolo,

I think you should really get out a bit more :wink:

K

George Szaszvari
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by George Szaszvari » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:03 pm

andrew martin wrote:Yes, great to see them adapting when confronted with a bunch of hillbillies.
On the same theme they also did a fun version of GRITS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8sJm7Ze ... re=related

...a lot of people recorded this song, my favorite versions being by Gene Autry, Johnny Cash and Frankie Laine,
and then I recently came across this (from a jam session before a Las Vegas NV concert, I believe):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVAp258I ... re=related

...and they're just fooling around! I just wish he'd done a serious recording for posterity. Just that little piece from
the jam reminds us just how good his voice really was...and that band...

Keep One-Point, pardner.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:06 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Bob Kane wrote:Does ~NOT~ publishing games give anyone an ~unfair~advantage ??
I don't think "unfair" is the right term, it looks to me like taking advantage of an unregulated loophole.

The request discussed in this thread is even more questionable because in a junior context. I wonder of the educational value of telling juniors they should not only try to improve their own play, but also make an effort to make the play of everyone else worse (in this game by hiding previous games). With a bit of exaggeration, you could also recommend the same juniors, if they are good at math NOT to study with their schoolmates and NOT to help them in math because the better their scores, the higher the average and the lower the value of their own results.
Paolo,

I think you should really get out a bit more :wink:

K
Shouldn't we all? :cry:

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:04 am

Krishna Shiatis wrote: I think you should really get out a bit more :wink:
I agree and I agree even more with the later comment from Johnatan Rogers.

I'm only very surprised to read this comment about taking things too seriously from the same person that started an earlier post with "Ever since someone did an upsetting article on my son in a junior magazine..." :wink: :wink:

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:49 am

Still trying to recall when I saw in CHESS they delayed publishing a game
at a players request. I spent a few minutes going through my own CHESS
collection....I don't think I am imagining it. I can see the note in my mind.
I'll stumble across it, which is often the case when I am looking for something else.

I have found the total reverse. (Supplied by Edward Winter).

http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/copyright.html

B.H. writes:

"Players send in games and are delighted to have them published,
for the publicity may gain them invitations to attractive tournaments.
When I omitted to publish one ambitious player’s games, he threatened to shoot me."

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 am

Hi Paolo,

Once again, I believe that you are missing the point.

One is good humoured banter and the other a publication which was upsetting to a junior and his family. I would like to reiterate, that I feel strongly that permission should be sought from the junior/parents of the junior before publication. If the articles are being done for educational purposes, then the names should be left out all together.

It does once again prove my point that there are some in the chess world that do not understand when a line has been crossed - particularly with juniors.

You are comparing two completely different things quite happily and not really understanding (again).

K

Richard Bates
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:35 pm

What was so upsetting about this referred to publication? That it gave some moves question marks or something in what was written?

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:01 pm

Richard Bates wrote:What was so upsetting about this referred to publication? That it gave some moves question marks or something in what was written?
Hi Richard,

If it was just a few question marks, I do not think that we would be having this conversation.

There were several things:

1) My son was just 10 when it was done to him.
2) It was published and received by us during the British Championships 2010, when my son was going for his third successive British junior title.
3) He saw it/read it the night before a key match and cried himself to sleep that night. He felt that it was a very one-sided article. He was really upset. We were really upset also.
4) The offending article was then waved in his face by juniors who did not realise and by juniors who did, just before his games during the championships.
5) He was so upset, he did not want to play the second week of the tournament (despite having won his section jointly) - the whole experience was enough to put him off.
6) For a long time afterward, (being a junior) he was very scared of making mistakes, in case the same thing happened. It took us a while to help him to put things into perspective.

Many of you reading this, will no doubt say 'well that's just silly'.

But you have to put yourselves into the shoes of a 10 year old child.

The thing is, (some, not all) juniors see things very differently. Things that adults perceive as being OK, juniors do not. Whilst some may argue, that it is all a part of the learning process, I believe that we should treat juniors better and let them learn without this kind of stress, at such a young age.

I have spoken with adults who have said that they would find this sort of thing difficult to deal with as adult players.

I am not a 'chess player' per se. I am a chess parent. I see the impact that this kind of thing has on my son and I look for ways to make things better for all.

The solution is not 'to give up chess' as Paolo suggested because firstly, my son loves it too much, but also because I believe there are ways to improve things with discussion and general awareness. Giving up does not fix anything.

It is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is about finding a working solution going forward.

Regards,

K

Richard Bates
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:10 pm

It is obviously difficult to comment in an informed way, not having read the article in question, but i don't really understand the connection between an "article" - by which i take to mean "words" - and the basic subject inspiring the the thread which is "publishing games". I must admit i am mystified as to the simple publication of moves can have any effect on anyone. A simple annotation could perhaps be "upsetting" if it pointed out that one side, say, missed several wins, although it is not the sort of "upset" that could remotely IMO justify non-publication.

Critical words is a different matter, but as i say, pretty tangential to the issue of publishing games.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:43 pm

Richard Bates wrote: i don't really understand the connection between an "article" - by which i take to mean "words" - and the basic subject inspiring the the thread which is "publishing games". I must admit i am mystified as to the simple publication of moves can have any effect on anyone.
I think that there is a very strong connection between the article and the publication of games and the title of my thread.

Firstly, I should say that I agree with many on this thread regarding the publication in general. Both those who say it does make an impact and those who say it does not.

I will explain.

I think that at higher levels, as Thomas Rendle explained, it is important, as it helps in preparation. At a lower level (probably 99% of junior games included in this category), it does not, as they do not prepare anyway.

As was also pointed out, published games may be used to disinform.

Overall in terms of advantage gained, I do not believe that it is 'significant' one way or another at the level played by most.

In summary, if there is no real advantage gained, then I would say, why not give parents the option as to whether the games are published or not?

Why am I so concerned? Well because when games are published, they are then pushed into the public domain. Anyone can do or say whatever they want about them (pretty much). I do not feel comfortable about this with junior games.

One could argue, that the opponent of the child could still publish/write articles about the games. Yes, that is true. However, it does reduce the number of people who have access to do this, by not publishing.

Also, if the ECF were to issue guidelines on articles about children (ie to ask permission before publishing articles with names etc) then I think that this would go a long way in improving how we deal with juniors in general.

I am not sure if I have explained this properly - I am not an intellectual - just a mum.

K
Last edited by Krishna Shiatis on Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John Upham
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Re: Does publishing games give anyone an advantage?

Post by John Upham » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:56 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote: and not really understanding (again).
I believe you mean "not really agreeing" rather than "not really understanding".

When engaging in discussions I frequently understand the various viewpoints and opinions proffered and, is some cases, I might or might not concur or agree with them.

To state that someone is "not understanding" is without foundation unless they admit to not understanding.

Perhaps I am not understanding? :lol:
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