An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Post Reply
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18101
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:00 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:. We know from the Observer that he went to them
Google for Chess Sheffield Guardian and the top search is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/au ... hts-tshirt which includes a comment by Len Barden.

It's dated 5pm on the Saturday of the prize giving and was printed in the Observer on page 11 according to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2011/aug/07/news

Their report has the ECF's subsequent clarification as a footnote.

E Michael White
Posts: 1335
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by E Michael White » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:28 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex McFarlane wrote:. We know from the Observer that he went to them
Google for Chess Sheffield Guardian and the top search is
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/au ... hts-tshirt which includes a comment by Len Barden.
It's dated 5pm on the Saturday of the prize giving and was printed in the Observer on page 11 according to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2011/aug/07/news

Their report has the ECF's subsequent clarification as a footnote.
In these links Leonard Barden is quoted - Leonard Barden, the Guardian's chess correspondent, said: "There has never been a dress code before. It's not something that happens in chess, it's supposed to be non-discriminatory."

This is incorrect. All Tournaments, which intend to be qualifying Tournaments for IM or GM norms as is the British Championships, have to observe the dress code written in the FIDE rules and has applied for several years.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3931
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:54 pm

E Michael White wrote:All Tournaments, which intend to be qualifying Tournaments for IM or GM norms as is the British Championships, have to observe the dress code written in the FIDE rules and has applied for several years.
I'm not sure that:
The FIDE Tournament Rules: C.06.15.b wrote: (b) All the participants should be dressed in a suitable manner.
...really counts as a dress code.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18101
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:59 pm

E Michael White wrote: This is incorrect. All Tournaments, which intend to be qualifying Tournaments for IM or GM norms as is the British Championships, have to observe the dress code written in the FIDE rules and has applied for several years.
You don't perhaps think that an unenforced dress code is de facto defunct. I'm not even sure what the code says, but even if the norm seeker was a political opponent of the FIDE President or his cronies, you would not expect a norm to be denied because of the wrong type of t-shirt.

Campomanes gained a lifetime enemy in Nigel Short by griping that Nigel was wearing shorts in an exceptional hot French Candidates. By contrast, it was reported that Nigel was applauded when he appeared in shorts at the British Championships not long after.

E Michael White
Posts: 1335
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by E Michael White » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:09 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:I'm not sure that:
The FIDE Tournament Rules: C.06.15.b wrote: (b) All the participants should be dressed in a suitable manner.
...really counts as a dress code.
Yes thats the rule. Theres is no doubt it is a code but the word suitable requires interpretation by the Event Managers and Senior Arbiters. The clue might be in the first 4 letters of suitable.

Many FIDE rules are written in this sloppy way. As you know I believe more detailed rules and dress codes are preferable to avoid disputes. The European Chess Union have produced more detailed rules which bar T-shirts for those presenting prizes, while other tournaments write their own code.

The ECF would be well advised to follow the ECU or specify their own code at this level. Following social norms those presenting prizes should not dress in a way which draws attention away from those receiving the prizes and so a suit or jacket would fill this purpose completely as is now specified in the ECU code.
Roger de Coverly wrote:You don't perhaps think that an unenforced dress code is de facto defunct. I'm not even sure what the code says, but even if the norm seeker was a political opponent of the FIDE President or his cronies, you would not expect a norm to be denied because of the wrong type of t-shirt.
Players are normally permitted to wear T-shirts. The new ECU code allows this, its only the prize presenters who cant. When I read this I found I agreed with it after thinking about it.

I guess players wearing distracting T-shirts with or without slogans might be annoying other players so should expect disqualification under the normal rules.

I dont believe the code is defunct as you suggest; it's just that the Managers at the British have not previously needed to enforce it.
Last edited by E Michael White on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18101
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:26 am

Martin Regan wrote:in passing,

It is inconcievable to me that the board's actions and reactions, have not been guided inch by inch by its pro-bono legal advisor. And in my experience, he knows what to advise in the best legal interests of the ECF.
Also in passing, there's an interview by Sean Marsh with CJ in the March 2010 issue of Chess. CJ is quizzed about his chess career and comments that he was at one time, one of the most active players in Britain. He also comments that he withdrew from the Grand Prix because of the policies of the then sponsor. The name of the sponsoring Company? Onyx, perhaps better known in the chess world as Leigh. It wasn't the only reason why he became inactive, because he also reveals that around the same time, he started an involvement with TV quiz shows.

There's a link below to what he refers to. Google searching hasn't come up with the name of Onyx or Leigh in connection.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 499249.stm

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:01 am

Martin Regan wrote:
following the inertia of the Gerry Walsh years and the chaos of the Regan resignations
i think the key point is we resigned and attacked the ECF. not attacked the ECF when we were still running it.
Your point being? Alex and Lara are not running the ECF, they are volunteers who the ECF uses when convenient to them. When it comes to supporting them against slanders made by more high profile individuals the ECF couldn't care less. That's my interpretation at least.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Lara Barnes
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Lara Barnes » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:32 am

We are adopting the new ECU dress code for The British Championships 2012. In the entry form I have retained the line "2) Participants are expected to maintain acceptable standards of dress & behaviour" but have added "(see Championship Website for conditions - http://www.britishchesschampionships.co.uk )" which will contain the new ECU dress code, perhaps with some ammendments - when we get the site up and running.

We may have to look at the clause that prohibits 'body odour' :wink: as it may be difficult to prevent!

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18101
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:35 am

Lara Barnes wrote:We are adopting the new ECU dress code for The British Championships 2012.

I hope you are joking. Being told what to wear for a leisure activity is alongside zero time defaults as a strong reason not to participate in an event. I'm afraid the term power-crazed arbiters comes to mind.

Richard Bates
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:42 am

Lara Barnes wrote:We are adopting the new ECU dress code for The British Championships 2012. In the entry form I have retained the line "2) Participants are expected to maintain acceptable standards of dress & behaviour" but have added "(see Championship Website for conditions - http://www.britishchesschampionships.co.uk )" which will contain the new ECU dress code, perhaps with some ammendments - when we get the site up and running.

We may have to look at the clause that prohibits 'body odour' :wink: as it may be difficult to prevent!
Fair enough have a dress code for the prize giving if that is where you want to avoid a repeat of what happened last year, but you're asking for trouble if you try and impose it during play IMO. At least people don't generally have to turn up to the prize giving. Especially if it is the ECU version which is seems to be both very specific (no shorts in a tournament at the height of the British summer!) and very ambiguous ("in general, this category of appearance demands a pulled-together, harmonious, complete look with colors, fabrics, shoes, and accessories, for both men and women"). It also seems to apply to spectators. Since "adopting the ECU dress code" would require an enormous number of amendments anyway, then if you want a dress code make up a better one of your own.

Anyway, wasn't it claimed that a dress code was in existence at this year's tournament?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18101
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:56 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote: Your point being? Alex and Lara are not running the ECF, they are volunteers who the ECF uses when convenient to them. When it comes to supporting them against slanders made by more high profile individuals the ECF couldn't care less. That's my interpretation at least.
Martin's point may have referred to CJ in effect attacking the ECF.

I think there's a possible contrast to Torquay 2009 when CJ was present as a spectator. Had he been asked to present prizes and a similar incident had occurred, he would have justification, as an outsider, in going to the press. As President, it would have been better to seek internal resolution before involving the national press. I think that is acknowledged in the ECF's later public statement and the "none of this .. if I had been involved" comment by the former Marketing Director.

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:15 am

I think Lara was being a bit tongue in cheek.

Obviously the dress code currently in place needs to be clarified and some of the less extreme measures of the ECU code would be a starting point.

Richard Bates
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:37 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:I think Lara was being a bit tongue in cheek.

Obviously the dress code currently in place needs to be clarified and some of the less extreme measures of the ECU code would be a starting point.
Hmmm, didn't really read like 'tongue in cheek' to me, but i'll bow to your opinion of what Lara meant. She is the Manager now though...

With reference to the ECU 'code', i would say that the only "less extreme measures" are those which are so ambiguous or open to interpretation as to be pointless anyway. And, for the purposes of the British, attempting to codify "acceptable standards of dress" is just asking for trouble. Especially as i suspect any "dress code" during play would I suspect largely be ignored and unenforced, which would just leave attempts to invoke it in isolated cases left looking petty or worse. Why should one breach be ignored and another penalised?

As i say, IMO, fair enough to have some sort of code specifically for the prize giving - although if introduced people shouldn't be required to attend.

Paul Dargan
Posts: 514
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:23 pm

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Paul Dargan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:12 pm

I wonder why we as chessplayers seem to have such an issue with the dress-code?

I've played in many bridge events with a rather more serious dress-code, for example the annual EBU Summer Events in Brighton have specific regulations recognising that it's held in August and as such, shorts will be acceptable for daytime sessions only - but don't think you'll be allowed in to play in the evening dressed like that.

For the evening sessions at Peebles, over 50% of the men make the effort to play in black tie...

I am certain that historically there was enforcement of some kind of dress-code, at least in the main event, as I recall an incident with Short wearing a T-shirt at Brighton back in (I think) '84...


Paul

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: An Open Letter to CJ De Mooi

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:52 pm

We're going somewhat off topic (debates over dress codes and eating restrictions have nothing to do with Alex's letter to CJ).

One debate that keeps coming up (it played a part in the Regan resignations as well as the CJ business) is amateurism vs professionalism as the ECF tries to reform. The British is the ECF's flagship event and has all the difference in the world between a club match in a pub function room.

Alex and Lara are not power crazed, they are volunteers who receive little recompense or thanks. It astounds me that they continue to go to all this effort [rest removed by moderator as it was, by the author's admission, a personal attack].
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Post Reply